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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#261601: May 25th 2021 at 7:32:20 AM

[tup]silence

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#261602: May 25th 2021 at 8:02:31 AM

Sure to Silence. I think with Ellen and "Not Important" getting cut, Silence is just the second CM who's the Player Character (not counting fighting games).

NTG Since: Aug, 2014
#261603: May 25th 2021 at 8:05:57 AM

[tup] for Brother Silence. Video game protags C Ms are indeed a rare thing.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#261605: May 25th 2021 at 8:23:10 AM

Yes to Lennox, Bison, Malephar, and Silence.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#261606: May 25th 2021 at 8:25:33 AM

Yes to Silence. Very strongly leaning "no" to Lennox, though, on the technicality he never really even appears. The only reason I'm not saying no outright is that he appears to have minimal presence in the game (Gorea from Metroid is the thin line I use to judge the minimum amount of character we need) but we don't and shouldn't be listing characters who fully qualify as The Ghost.

I'd fucking love to do the nameless Alchemist from Bloodstained, but the fact he never appears in the flesh—not even bones or audio recordings, just the notes he left behind—renders most everything he's done as Offscreen Villainy, sadly. These are the kinda pitfalls that come inherent with that.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#261607: May 25th 2021 at 8:30:10 AM

Reminds me off the Imposter king from The Lumatere Chronicles. Betrays his kingdom to an invading army, has the women and girls sexually abused and orders a purge off all magic users in his kingdom....(You know Normal Ya literature stuff.....)

And we never see him ever appear onscreen in person.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
#261608: May 25th 2021 at 8:37:12 AM

Solidifying a no to Lennox, then.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#261609: May 25th 2021 at 8:39:15 AM

He does briefly appear in cutscenes however, just enough to establish an MO for him to make it (in my opinion at least). He never speaks because the Framing Device is Keller's narration - he wouldn't be speaking no matter what, and what we can attribute to him shows him to be a Manipulative Bastard who commits terrorist atrocities for greed. Even the fact that he never actually appears in-game is justified by him using a body double to die in his place. The fact is that the story was written after the game was already made, so they had to work around it, but he does appear in cutscenes and we see the aftermath of some of his actions - especially his killing about a dozen US forces in his retreat.

I'll freely admit that it's not the most exciting keeper ever, but I really do think he's got just enough to make it here.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#261610: May 25th 2021 at 8:41:05 AM

So about Mikey I ended up accidentally discovering that he was EPed a while ago but was shot down due to some Pet the Dog moment involving his fish something that the current EP doesn't make any mention of I could be overthinking this and I am not sure myself if this is disqualifying but I think this should at least be brought up.

Also here is the link for the original EP.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on May 25th 2021 at 8:41:28 AM

Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#261611: May 25th 2021 at 8:42:14 AM

@NTG Sagat is still seemingly loyal to Bison, and was grateful to Bison for recruiting him and "Saving him"" (Note this is Bison we are talking about so this is likely him gaining new pawns) and wanted to succeed in his mission to repay him.

  • Malibu Comic's Street Fighter: M.Bison employs Sagat and Balrog to assassinate Ryu's friends, including Ken, to weaken Ryu and lure him in. Having Ken assaulted, and later stabbed to death, delivering a chunk of his scalped hair to Ryu afterwords. While recruiting Vega, he snaps the neck of a monk and sends an assassin to poison Shen Long, Ryu's mentor, in order for him not to intervene with his plans. Augmenting Sagat's powers to a near-deadly rate, allowing him to brutally beat and seemingly kill some of his men in training to prepare him for another fight with the Street Fighters.

PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
#261612: May 25th 2021 at 8:43:26 AM

[up][up][up] If he can have even one line, the Framing Device is no excuse for him not to have more. He sounds like a borderline GDV with how little the game elaborates on him.

[up][up] Interesting.

Edited by PurpleEyedGuma on May 25th 2021 at 11:44:14 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#261613: May 25th 2021 at 8:46:43 AM

Uh considering we have no clue why he's doing this. Plus only having ome line and not even being in the plot much, I'm going with a [tdown] now.

Edited by miraculous on May 25th 2021 at 8:47:09 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#261614: May 25th 2021 at 8:47:32 AM

Switching to a no on Lennox.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#261615: May 25th 2021 at 8:47:59 AM

The line that he has is the one thing Keller ever heard him say, so it actually is largely about the Framing Device. And like I said before, we get enough of the pattern, a fairly fleshed out backstory, and enough indication that the motive is Greed that he's not a GDV - in fact, Keller mentions that he originally thought Lennox was a gun for hire. I do understand if Offscreen Villainy is a concern, but even just what we see in the cutscenes and stumble on in-game is just enough to push him over.

[down] And in cutscenes we see him coordinating executions on other agency spooks and committing bombings - a newspaper clipping in the cutscene estimates 90 casualties

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on May 25th 2021 at 12:08:17 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#261616: May 25th 2021 at 9:00:42 AM

Okay so checking his ep. The stuff we see him do onscreen is kill people trying to kill him already?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#261617: May 25th 2021 at 9:11:21 AM

Lemme proffer I'm not voting no to Lennox outright. He'll never count on MB because he doesn't really have the onscreen personality for it. I'm more lenient on that with CM given all the character you really need is "pure evil."

I'm gonna elaborate on why a character like Gorea qualifies and someone like Elizabeth Bartley (from Castlevania) doesn't. Gorea has really thin character and really thin motivation given it only appears at the end of the game and when encountered directly it mostly just seems to be a lumbering, silent Final Boss. But—Gorea is demonstrated to be intelligent, particularly for an Eldritch Abomination. One of the two lines it gets is to set up a Batman Gambit so effective it fools seven of the galaxy's greatest bounty hunters. Furthermore the in-game logs hint as heavily as they can that Gorea's a freaking sadist—purposefully taking on the form of the Alimbics to mock them while it was wiping them—and even failing that, it's ravenous to the point it would devour all life in the universe if it were left unchecked.

Bartley gets nothing like that. Nothing. No hints or implications toward a motive; no dialogue; no sadism; not even a change in expression. She's there to fill the role of a boss. I sadly came to a similar conclusion to a really, really nasty human trafficker from Nightside, who despite creating one of the most sadistic industries in the series, sadly just didn't do anything to give her any individual presence beyond having a name and a gruesome death.

Lennox being almost entirely The Ghost is my biggest issue because that seriously hampers what we're supposed to be measuring onscreen. But he's not totally removed from the plot, he's got a decent body count, and there's a motive that speaks for itself...

I honestly can't vote yes to Lennox because these are some really big issues I can hurdle over—even Gorea actually became the Final Boss at the end—but I can't really say "no" outright because it'd be inconsistent with my own rulings. I'm gonna let the thread hash this out; at best, IMO, he only keeps by technicality.

Edited by Scraggle on May 25th 2021 at 10:22:05 AM

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#261618: May 25th 2021 at 9:22:36 AM

Give me a moment to elaborate further with those as metrics - it’ll give me an opportunity to accurately gather my thoughts

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#261619: May 25th 2021 at 9:23:24 AM

Uh guys for Mickey. We downvoted him before. Could we discuss that since multiple people who say the film weren't for him.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#261620: May 25th 2021 at 9:27:10 AM

For that Nightside baddie...is not creating a human trafficking ring not enough?

I'm still leaning yes on Lennox.

Wasn't there a Super Sentai keeper recently? It needs to be added to the Drafts.

Edited by ACW on May 25th 2021 at 12:29:35 PM

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#261621: May 25th 2021 at 9:28:43 AM

[tdown] to Lennox and Mikey

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#261622: May 25th 2021 at 9:29:38 AM

She gets no dialogue and just dies.

I'd like her to go up as what we see is along with the great sacrifice one of the most horrifying things in the novels but nothing is their

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#261624: May 25th 2021 at 9:36:43 AM

If Mikey actually does care about the fish, it's not refuted and it's not just being shown as an indicator of his sociopathy (like Marlo in The Wire having more "affection" for pigeons that any human being), no to him.

@ACW: The trafficking operation from Nightside is called "Precious Memories" where little, little kids are tortured and raped to death in every way imaginable and a magical "precious memory" is created of the event so the clients can vividly relive it any time they want.

The issue—like Mir said. She shows up to stand around, say nothing, do nothing, get lectured by the heroes and then die. She's not even visibly sadistic.

DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#261625: May 25th 2021 at 9:39:02 AM

I'm with Mir, can we please discuss Mikey more properly?

Like, does he get over losing the fishes? From the sounds of the EP, it says that he "liked" all the other fishes, and he ends up killing all the other fish he liked without batting an eye.

Also, considering his obsession with being loved and how he treats everyone like possessions, who's to say that he's just upset that they took away his "Things"?

TD;LR, how's the scene played?

Edited by DoodSlayer136 on May 25th 2021 at 9:40:00 AM


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