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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#260226: May 15th 2021 at 11:17:03 AM

Ozai admits that he is waiting for Zuko to fall asleep before killing him so his death will be painless and even admits that he is a merciful man.

[lol]. Yeah uh....that is bullshit.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#260227: May 15th 2021 at 11:17:09 AM

Looking at the writeup, it seems like he treats Zuko bad afterward, so that MAY not be redeeming.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#260228: May 15th 2021 at 11:17:45 AM

[up][up] That is what he says I'm not lying about this.

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#260229: May 15th 2021 at 11:18:01 AM

Yeah, that sounds like Ozai just being a dick.

[tup]Daimyo, Terry, & Koslow

Edited by nwotyzal on May 15th 2021 at 12:01:09 PM

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#260230: May 15th 2021 at 11:19:05 AM

It’s pretty much the definition of the non-redeeming hypocritical standard, so yeah, he’s fine

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#260231: May 15th 2021 at 11:19:26 AM

He tries to fry Zuko alive later. He’s an abusive fascist through his life from there oh. No, there’s nothing redeeming here.

He doesn’t actually have standards on this. He’s just going on a whim.

Edited by Lightysnake on May 15th 2021 at 11:20:06 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#260232: May 15th 2021 at 11:21:17 AM

I didn't mean you where lying ordeaux. It's just hypocritical Never My Fault bullshit.

Edited by miraculous on May 15th 2021 at 11:22:02 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#260233: May 15th 2021 at 11:22:01 AM

[up] Oh my mad.

Yeah I thought it might not be redeeming just wanted to make sure.

Edited by Ordeaux26 on May 15th 2021 at 11:22:16 AM

VengefulBale Bishie Gijinka Meta Knight from Nowhere Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Bishie Gijinka Meta Knight
#260234: May 15th 2021 at 11:24:52 AM

Yeah, that is definitely NOT a redeeming quality. It's bullshit on the level of General Mandible saying "I do this for the colony" when he meant and later said: "I AM THE COLONY"

It's just BS the villains say to act like they have the moral high ground and are "right", not actual redeeming quality or standards

Prettiest Meta Knight Gijinka, ngl
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#260235: May 15th 2021 at 11:31:41 AM

"I tried to kill my own son who I’ve never liked at all in his sleep so that he won’t feel a thing." Yeah...makes about as much sense as Ego deciding to kill Meredith with a brain tumor because he HAS to make it all about him.

It was on good faith, but it’s just not true at all when it comes to Oazi. The man had zero compassion.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on May 15th 2021 at 11:32:22 AM

WatTambor Since: Oct, 2020
#260236: May 15th 2021 at 11:42:05 AM

Yeah, it doesn't sound like a redeeming quality.

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#260237: May 15th 2021 at 11:55:12 AM

[tup] Dark Daimyo and Kozlow, abstain on Terry.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#260239: May 15th 2021 at 12:27:42 PM

To celebrate Amphibia's finale finally getting a release date after being delayed (long story, look it up yourself if you don't know), I thought I'd celebrate with a Disney property that is not connected to the show in any way or form... you're reason as to why is as good as mine

What Is The Work

Something Wicked This Way Comes is a 1983 dark fantasy based off the novel by Ray Bradbury (which I have not read). In Green Town, Illinois, two kids born a few minutes from each other on Halloween, Will Holloway & Jim Nightshade, find that a carnival is coming to town. However, this carnival is not as it seems.

view here

Who Is The Candidate

The ringmaster of the carnival, Mr. Dark, is the eloquent and sophisticated leader of the Autumn People, a group that travels to different towns every Fall, sets up Dark's Pandemonium Carnival, and entices people to come in by granting them whatever they desire the most, before stealing & devouring their souls, which then transforms them into Autumn People themselves. Arriving in Green Town, Mr. Dark manages to successfully convert 4 people in the film, barber Mr. Crosetti, taking advantage of his lust for "exotic" women; bartender & former football star Ed, giving him his missing hand & leg back, and later shown to be aged down into a child, Mr. Tetley, making him win the lottery with 1 million before he goes on the Ferris Wheel and doesn’t come back, and a particularly cruel instance with the teacher Miss Foley, giving her the beauty she once had, but then blinding her so that she can't see herself.

A major concern of his plan, however, is the storm that follows them around, which will destroy him and the rest of the Autumn People if they stay for too long. Needing to find out when it will strike, Mr. Dark kidnaps lightning rod salesman Tom Fury and tortures him with an electric chair while also having his minion, the Dust Witch, try and seduce him, bothe fail. After Will & Jim stop him from torturing Fury, Mr. Dark has the Dust Witch cast a spell which causes a bunch of spiders come into their rooms in an attempt to kill them, however, the lighting rod Jim bought from Fury earlier in the film saves them (Dark also scares them by having a fake version of Will get his head lobbed of, on-screen)

In the 3rd act of the film, Mr. Dark sends out a search party, disguised as a parade, to find the kids, where he meets Will’s father Charles, whom Dark later meets in his library. Trying to convince him to give the location of Will & Jim by offering him the ability to go back to his younger years so that he can have more time to spend with Will. When Charles refuses, Dark attacks him in rage and, after finding the kids, has the Dust Witch attempt to kill him, gloating about how he’s failed to protect the kids. Before taking the kids, focusing on Jim due to his rebellious nature and whom he offers to make him a co-owner of the carnival so he can steal his soul, to his carousel (which has the ability to age or de-age people depending on which way it’s going) to age them into dust. When Charles follows them into the carnival, he traps him in the Hall of Mirrors, mocking him on how he’ll miss moments he could have with Will due to his age, while also breaking him by making it seem Will considers him a failure of a parent, before once again having the Dust Witch kill him. However she gets stopped by Will when he tells his dad how much he loves him, before she gets impaled by a lightning rod by an escaped Fury. Eventually near the end, Dark gets trapped on the carousel and aged up into a skeleton and the carnival and all the Autumn People (including the 4 corrupted townsfolk, so there’s that) get killed by the storm.

Heinousness

Pretty much sets it, all of the Autumn People are under his employ, manages to get a decent body count, and is shown to be a sadistic soul eating psycho. Jonathan Pryce’s performance gives him an eloquence and dignity, but it’s also shown that it can easily slip and that he can snap at a moment’s notice (like in the library)

Freudian Excuses

Yeah no. Any of the wishes he gives to the townsfolk are only so that he can have them turned into his carnies, and him offering Jim co-ownership is only so he can corrupt him as well.

Final Verdict

You Decide (also in case you’re wondering, he is the inspiration for Mr. Needful)

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#260240: May 15th 2021 at 12:35:08 PM

Leaning yes, but if someone's read the novel (I have, YEARS ago), is he different enough?

VengefulBale Bishie Gijinka Meta Knight from Nowhere Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Bishie Gijinka Meta Knight
#260241: May 15th 2021 at 12:35:48 PM

[tup] to Mr. Dank Memes.. Err Mr. Dark

Prettiest Meta Knight Gijinka, ngl
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#260242: May 15th 2021 at 12:36:43 PM

[tup]Mr. Dark

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#260243: May 15th 2021 at 12:39:20 PM

Always wonder when he'll be brought up, yessir to Mr. Dark

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#260244: May 15th 2021 at 12:40:34 PM

I did watch the film, but didn't think he was heinous enough.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#260245: May 15th 2021 at 12:48:49 PM

I can do one on the book version as well if the film keeps as they're different enough, but the main issue...

This is where Scraggle talked me out of it: Dark isn't just evil, he feeds on pain and darkness and is literally harmed and killed by love and goodness. Is that enough for agency issues to arise?

There's no discussion of that in the EP and there needs to be

Edited by Lightysnake on May 15th 2021 at 12:57:44 PM

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#260246: May 15th 2021 at 12:54:03 PM

[tup] Kozlow (that movie's hilarious)

  • Justice Society: World War II: The Advisor, this universe’s Psycho-Pirate, is Aquaman’s Evil Chancellor who allied himself with the Nazis. Once a pirate who was rescued by the Atlanteans after his ship sunk, the Advisor thanked them by brainwashing Aquaman, using him to give Atlantean weapons to the Nazis to assist in their world domination scheme, hoping to betray them once they achieve their goal. After luring the Justice Society into a trap in Atlantis, the Advisor sends Aquaman and his Atlantean army to wreak havoc on American soil, hoping to destroy the entire country to make it easier for the Nazis to conquer. Smugly killing Steve Trevor after Aquaman breaks his control and retreats, the Advisor also reveals to have called in some planes to bomb the entire country should Aquaman fail.
  • Yasuke: The Dark Daimyo is the demonic ruler of the Daimyo who wants to create a Hell on Earth using the little Saki’s powers. Banished to the Astral Plane for centuries, the Dark Daimyo, having fed off the misery and suffering of Japan, sends her sorcerous soldiers out to wreak havoc and take as many lives as they can in their search for Saki, even killing her top generals who fail to acquire the child. Showing a sadistic love of mentally torturing her victims, when the samurai Yasuke and Saki enter her palace, the Dark Daimyo poses as his master Oda Nobunaga to get him to kill Saki for her own amusement, hoping to kill the child herself and gain immortality.

It's Spooky Month!
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#260248: May 15th 2021 at 1:40:08 PM

Yeah I'd...really like Lighty's concerns addressed before voting, here. A villain not being explicitly being Made of Evil but still wounded by love and goodness leaves a bit of...an inference that agency is questionable.

Believe it or not, Trantor the Troll from freakin' Ernest Scared Stupid would probably be worth a discussion...but the same principle applies that even though he might not be flat-out said to be Made of Evil and lacking agency, he's beaten by a pure act of love literally erasing him from existence. Aversions to the mere concept of love and goodness like that are so questionable in exactly what they imply for a villain that they could definitely be interpretated as agency issues.

Edited by Ravok on May 15th 2021 at 1:43:14 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#260249: May 15th 2021 at 1:41:32 PM

Scraggle and I watched the movie, and we discussed this...our main issue was that while Dark is so in command of himself...the Autumn People can literally be killed by the powers of love and goodness. Dark is killed in the book after being de-aged by being hugged and loved.

Like Mephisto and Trigon you can power of love them all day and they'll be fine from it, but when a villain is explicitly hurt and killed by positive emotion...

Edited by Lightysnake on May 15th 2021 at 1:43:42 AM

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#260250: May 15th 2021 at 1:44:59 PM

Maybe it's because I never read the book, but I never got the sense that Dark had agency issues, as I thought that he seemed a bit eager to kill the kids. Additionally Dark isn't killed or harmed by The Power of Love here, instead getting aged into dust. (The Dust Witch does back away when Will mentions his love for his dad, but it played more like it caught her off guard)

I'm not sure it that's enough but that's what I got out of my watching.

Edited by nwotyzal on May 15th 2021 at 1:46:18 AM


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