During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Stillson and Kalmaar
Yasuke was a man from Africa who was taken to Japan as part of the Nanban trade. Serving under Italian Jesuit missionary Alessandro Valignano on his mission to the Indies in 1579, it wasn’t until 1581 when he became a retainer for Oda Nobunaga after he became fascinated by his dark skin color. Yasuke would go on to fight by Nobunaga’s side during the Battle of Tenmokuzan, and would later witness his master’s seppuku the following year. Yasuke’s fate remained unknown after that, with his death never documented. Nevertheless, Yasuke became well known as the Black Samurai, with his legacy continuing to this day.
...
Okay, so take all of that, and add demons, black magic, robots, a giant Russian woman who can turn into a bear, and a little girl with magical powers.
What Is the Work?
Yasuke is a 2021 Netflix anime very loosely based on the legend of the samurai Yasuke, starring Lakeith Stanfield as the voice of the titular samurai.
The plot? Well, take what I said above and just make it an anime. Yasuke, after witnessing Nobunaga taking his own life, retires to become a lonely ferryman. But danger abounds when serveral factions want their hands on Saki, a girl with loads of power. She’s essentially a Japanese Carrie. It’s up to Yasuke and some old friends of his to save Saki and the entire world as we know it.
Who Is She?
The Dark Daimyo (who I'll refer to as DD), the final Big Bad who just kinda shows up outta nowhere, is the demonic head of the Daimyo clan who seeks to create a Hell on Earth using Saki’s powers.
What has she done?
Introduced in Episode 4 (of 6), DD is incapable of movement thanks to being attached to… grotty spider web thingys, I guess. Having been imprisoned in the Astral Plane for centuries, escaped to earth, and has been feasting on the land of Japan with her demonic Daimyo clan, who take what they want and kill those in their path. DD desires Saki in order to increase her lifespan, hoping to live for another century once she’s done with her.
Sending her powered-up warlords out to cause havoc and bring her Saki, DD doesn't tolerate failures. When one of them, Kurosaka, doesn’t bring Saki back to her and fails to kill Yasuke, DD absorbs all of the dark magic she had given her until she’s nothing but a dried up husk, transferring the power over to her more capable Dark General.
As the Dark General leads an attack on Morisuke (Yasuke’s friend)’s village of young fighters, DD, using the General as a conduit, invades Saki’s mind through the Astral Plane in an attempt to claim her soul and gain her powers. After Saki breaks free of her control, DD hightails it out.
So now Yasuke and Saki travel to DD’s lair, while Morisuke’s men deal with the Daimyo army. In her confrontation with Yasuke, DD takes on the form of Nobunaga and lures the samurai to her room. With Yasuke’s control in her grasp, DD has him try and kill Saki by making her resemble a monster, while also trying to goad Saki into killing him in self-defense. Having done that for the sake of amusing herself, DD kills Yasuke when he tries to defend Saki (he gets better). This awakens Saki’s true potential, using her powers to completely eradicate the Daimyo entirely.
As DD lays dying, she taunts Saki on how she will become just like her when she’s older, and begs Yasuke to kill her. Yasuke instead leaves her behind to suffer.
Redeeming Qualities?
Not really.
When she first meets Saki and Morisuke in the Astral Plane, she tells them that she was "trapped here for hundreds of years, molded by it." That's never elaborated on afterwards, and it's never outright stated she was turned evil because of her imprisonment; it could be referring to how she got her powers, or it could be how she got so ugly, but that's all we get.
Heinousness?
DD wants to plunge the world in fire, she allows her army to kill plenty of people (some of which were innocent villagers), loves to Mind Rape her enemies, and is shown to be very sadistic in her love of tormenting our protagonists.
There’s the priest Abraham, but aside from his sadistic love of torture, he doesn't compare at all to DD. Or Nobunaga for that matter, as the anime, while presenting him as nicer when compared to other shows, doesn't shy away from his brutality or dark side, with one instance of his murders and crucifixions.
Conclusion
I think she’s a keep.
It's Spooky Month!![]()
as what I also said about Sub Zero
Also
to Dark Daimyo
Oh just realized today is the day to talk about Without Remorse since I’ve reserved this. Unlike the discussion on the MB forum, I’ll make this one quick, no one counts the Big Bad who may be heinous just enough has redeeming qualities in that he has a family whom he fears for their lives when Kelly threatened to kill them
Edited by G-Editor on May 14th 2021 at 4:10:16 AM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffYes to the dark daimyo..
My next on Sub Zero...people are, I think, extrapolating what isn't there. The comparisons to people like Tarkin and Krennic who have extensive literature showcasing them as little but backstabbing snakes isn't the same. Nothing indicates Sub is only in this for himself. He gives the "For the Lin Kuei" when he kills Hanzo, their greatest enemy and says it after unmasking when he's about to die fighting.
There isn't anything here to indicate he's being disingenuous with this or "he's not actually loyal to the Lin Kue"
Given it's a divisive case I'll throw in a weak
to Sub Zero. His loyalty seems at the very least too much implied to be genuine to where I can't say he counts.
So if I'm getting this straight, he does say the exact quote twice—first when he's doing a "good" for his clan and then when he's about to go down fighting? Yeah, I can't see legitimately anyway to interpret that as anything but a genuine sense of loyalty or honor to his clan. If there were hints of disingenuousness or mockery in his tone, anything, I'd be more questioning, but taking into account the context and the clips I've seen? Gotta go with a 'No'.
Edited by Ravok on May 14th 2021 at 8:38:36 AM
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!One of my Director Harold Becker ones. Been sitting on this one for a very freaking long time and finally started writing it today (as well as rewatching the movie and the climax just ended):
What is the work?
Sea of Love is a 1989 thriller in which New York Detective Frank Kellogg and, from another precinct, Detective Sherman Touhey are investigating a serial killer targeting men who’ve put out Lonely Hearts newspaper ads. Kellogg ends up meeting and developing a relationship with a woman named Helen Cruger and evidence begins to suggest that she is the killer and Frank is the next target. She’s not the killer, but there’s a very good reason why he thought so.
Who is he and what has he done?
Terry Cruger is a security guard and Helen’s obsessed Ex-husband who, when the relationship went extremely sour because of him, she left without revealing she was pregnant with their daughter. Developing a volatile If I Can't Have You… montra, Terry learns of Helen using the Lonely Hearts ads during the eight months he’s secretly stalking her to find someone else and decides to target the men she sees. On three different occasions, Terry holds the man at gun point and while the Phil Phillips song "Sea of Love" plays, forces each one to dry hump the bed or gyrate on it while naked (he likely forces them to strip naked if they’re not already as he tries to do to Frank later) and then shoots each one in the head.
In Terry’s first scene, he’s telling his co-workers a crude joke (most exotic place a husband and wife have made love is in the ass basically) and in his second, he goes to the department to keep himself from being suspected by saying he saw a suspicious kid working at the grocery store rushing out of one of the apartments. Terry also makes it a point to bring up that the kid was Black too. He also said he had cornrows (while horribly botching the word at first and saying "cornholes" or something) and calling the kid a "piece of shit" as well.
At the climax of the movie, Terry attacks Frank outside his apartment (after stalking him there once or twice before), and gyrating on Frank while pinning him on the bed, Terry nearly makes him his fourth victim by demanding at gun point that he gyrate on the bed to show how Frank and Helen had sex (while also trying to force Frank to strip naked as I said before). Frank fights back and nearly arrests him at gun point, but Terry proves too violent to control. The two continuing having an all-out fight and it ends with Frank throwing Terry out the window to his death (several stories down and into an awning).
Redeeming qualities? Mitigating factors?
He hasn’t made any effort to convince Helen to stay in his life or talk about them having a child and doesn’t express any kind of genuine sadness about not being near his daughter (Helen clearly was afraid of him too and when he gets hostile and angry with Frank about trying to take his family, he views them more as a possession than people he loves). Terry’s also content it seems in just making sure no other man can have her and thus, why he targets them once they’ve met her, even if it was only very brief. Terry ultimately is an obsessive and petty freak when it all comes down to it and has no genuine relationships or cares in the end.
Heinous standard?
Yes, it’s only three murders and yes Terry targets men, but he still seems perfectly content though in having an innocent teen take the fall ultimately (never mind making it a point to say the boy’s Black too and it’s also pretty freaking racist actually as well). The nature of the killings is of a sexual assault nature though too, in which he forces each man to hump the bed before shooting them (it’s implied that’s why Helen ended up so afraid of him too). In Frank's case, he tried to force him to get out of his clothes while doing it at gun point too and pretty much humping him at the same time, so it adds an extra layer of horror to the nature of the killings if you ask me.
Verdict?
Became more confident in this one as I watched, so yeah, I say
.
Welp, just found this about Bi-Han:
- Even Evil Has Standards: According to interviews with his actor, Bi-Han is against killing children, but his loyalty to the Lin Kuei overrode his morals. This becomes the reason he refers to himself as Sub-Zero when Shang Tsung called him by his name; he wants to distance himself from Bi-Han, the child murderer.
I know it's Word of God, but thanks to this I'm much more comfortable with giving him a
. Apparently it's even referenced in the film thanks to him going That Man Is Dead.
I'll read Future's EP in a sec. Reading It... I think I'll abstain. I honestly don't know what to make of Terry's MO.
![]()
In all fairness, it was like 400 years ago. It's entirely possible that he mellowed out during then.
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on May 14th 2021 at 9:23:47 AM
That one at the very least is Bullcrap as discussed earlier, the dude literally mocks the family before killing them.
I think I'm gonna say yes myself but I do kinda take issue with the arguments presented...the reason im a Yes at this point is that, As he did say it earlier on it comes across to me as more of just a Badass Creed? So it makes sense to say it when you kill an Enemy or when your about to try fighting at the end.
Sorry if I sound stupid or something, just my own thoughts.
Bow to the Prototype
to Terry
What about my argument
about the Stephenwolf from Justice League’s theatrical version still counting despite him saying “for Darkseid!” At one point and how that’s comparable to Subzero’s situation? I feel like no one has payed attention to that yet
Edited by G-Editor on May 14th 2021 at 6:33:21 AM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
I mean Sub-Zero said it knowing he was about to die, and Steppenwolf only said it once and he never said it again especially when he was being attacked by Parademons. I can kinda see where Lighty, Svraggle, and Ravok are going with this but I'm gonna stay out of the Sub-Zero thing completely.
Plus Sub-Zero said it twice not once.
Edited by Powermaster201 on May 14th 2021 at 12:44:31 PM

Yeah, Ultron from "Next Avengers" willingly, for no reason except selfishness, changing "bring order to the world" into "I want to control it and be an egomaniac in the process" is a big difference from Master Mold explicitly carrying out his original commands but in a misinterpreted way. Master Mold sounds far more like the Ultron from "Earth's Mightiest Heroes'', who doesn't count for genuinely believing organics are killing the planet because of explicitly flawed programming.
Edited by Ravok on May 14th 2021 at 3:20:51 AM
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!