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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

rosewood47 from A Padded Cell (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
#260126: May 14th 2021 at 12:26:00 PM

@Orangutans: Biopic candidates can still count. It's not breaking the "no real life examples" rule because it’s not really calling the real life person a monster. Like I have a version of Ted Bundy that got upvoted a while back. Ted Bundy the person is not a CM, but Ted Bundy the character is.

Speaking of, I might have another biopic proposal in the coming weeks after I finish up some things. So stay tuned.

Edited by rosewood47 on May 14th 2021 at 3:32:07 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#260127: May 14th 2021 at 12:27:27 PM

Theirs also Howard Epps most infamously.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Orangutans Since: May, 2018 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#260128: May 14th 2021 at 12:28:20 PM

A biopic is a fictionalized and dramatized version of real-life events. Death of Stalin also has Beria, and that's also based off real-life events, but those songs are fictionalized versions of real-life events too. I think the better argument against Slayer being there is that Slayer writes songs with 9-10 on the Mohs Scale Of Lyrical Hardness about murderers all the time so their heinousness scales would be much higher.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#260129: May 14th 2021 at 12:28:26 PM

To answer your inquiry Bootle, I think the biggest issue with Master Mold is heinousness. Several of the current CMs threaten billions of lives while having less resources than Master Mold, and all have personal villainy to back it up as well.

Edited by Ravok on May 14th 2021 at 12:29:58 PM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#260130: May 14th 2021 at 12:29:49 PM

@mir Edwin. There’s also the fictional version of Amon Goeth too.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on May 14th 2021 at 12:30:05 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#260131: May 14th 2021 at 12:30:34 PM

Yeah the animated x men show is the condensation of more or less the absolute worst things that several villains got up to the 80s and 90s runs which leads to a high standard.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#260132: May 14th 2021 at 12:31:11 PM

I mean, Ted Bundy actually has three incarnations, and two of them are based on real life

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#260133: May 14th 2021 at 12:33:04 PM

Isn't this discussed in administrava ?

Why are we doing this discussion again ?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#260134: May 14th 2021 at 12:34:25 PM

[tup] to Kalmaar, Stillson, and sticking with my gut and vote [tup] to Sub-Zero. He only said that line like once and it doesn’t really amount to much especially since he doesn’t actually declare loyalty to his boss ( While we did approved the Theatrical version of Stephenwolf despite him saying “for Darkseid”!). Plus we did allow candidates to get approved even if they declare “Undying Loyalty” since they can also be portrayed as a Psycho Supporter

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#260135: May 14th 2021 at 12:35:33 PM

We also have versions of Robert Hansen, BTK and Wayne Williams, and Andrei Chikatilo, even if I'm sketchy on the latter two being listed.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Pikamencer079 Since: Jul, 2018 Relationship Status: Married to the job
#260136: May 14th 2021 at 12:36:20 PM

With the amount of approvals my first effortpost candidate, the Robin King, got, I think it's about time he got a writeup.

Death Metal: The Robin King is a version of Bruce Wayne who was born hyper-violent and evil on an unknown world in the Dark Multiverse. Committing various obscenely violent atrocities as a child, such as bashing Alfred Pennyworth in the face with his rattle, torturing animals, and crafting weapons, Bruce solidifies himself as a sociopathic murderer by shooting his parents in Crime Alley and framing a mugger he killed immediately before. Murdering Alfred and police officer Jim Gordon, Bruce, soon turns to bigger game (i.e. the superhero population) and puts his weapons to use in the most brutal and sadistic manners a 10-year-old boy can imagine. Reluctantly deferring to the authority of the Batman Who Laughs, who christens him the Robin King, Bruce aids his new master by gleefully killing off many heroes who stand in the laughing Knight's way of Multiversal conquest. Despite not racking up as high a body count as his older, Jokerized counterpart, the Robin King still manages to rival and on some occasions, surpass him in sheer sadism and stand out as one of the most depraved incarnations of Bruce Wayne in the Multiverse.

Edited by Pikamencer079 on May 14th 2021 at 12:36:39 PM

rosewood47 from A Padded Cell (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
#260137: May 14th 2021 at 12:39:37 PM

Someone brought up Amon Goeth, and that actually reminded me of something. During his hanging scene, before they drop him, he gives one last salute and proclaims "heil Hitler." If that doesn't disqualify him, then I don't think "for the Lin Kuei" should disqualify Sub-Zero. The argument seems to be "he says it as he knows he's about to die," but Goeth says it in the same context.

Edited by rosewood47 on May 14th 2021 at 3:40:59 PM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#260139: May 14th 2021 at 12:57:08 PM

The difference there is Goeth was clearly just aiming for a last "fuck you." Goeth's charaterization is that of a self-interested racist, Nazi sociopath. I'm also way less willing to think of loyalty to a genocidal fascist regime as loyalty in the way I would a ninja's devotion to his clan.

Likewise, Baron Harkonnen's interest in his House is self-interested. He's fully willing to sacrifice his nephew Rabban and abuse his other nephew Feyd-Rautha to become a reflection of it.

If people still wanna vote him up, go for it. Just making my argument.

Edited by Lightysnake on May 14th 2021 at 12:57:47 PM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#260140: May 14th 2021 at 1:10:05 PM

Btw anyone else what to comment for jackie

I'd personally saw the dark daimyo sounds like a yes

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#260141: May 14th 2021 at 1:13:29 PM

Yeah Dark Daimyo sounds like a keep

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#260142: May 14th 2021 at 1:19:29 PM

Yeah having also saw Yasuke I think Dark Daimyo can count and is worth an EP. The same with Abraham.

I also mentioned on my previous post that Theatrical version of Stephenwolf also said “for Darkseid” yet we decided to approve him as this since its was not really elaborated on. I believe the same is also said for Sub-Zero

Edited by G-Editor on May 13th 2021 at 10:21:35 PM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#260143: May 14th 2021 at 1:23:46 PM

Yes to Kalmaar, Stillson and Black Beetle, abstain on Sub Zero.

Master Mold kinda lacks moral agency IMO, he was programmed to defend humans from mutants, decides that is illogical and decides to defend humans from themselves. The other versions of Master Mold we have up have more defined agency.

And keep Georges Rutaganda, Hotel Rwanda is a fictional film based on real events, not a documentary.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#260144: May 14th 2021 at 1:27:09 PM

Oh, and a very late but enthusiastic 'Yes' to Black Beetle, missed that one at first but absolutely agree he Keeps and has been a long time in coming.

  • Hancock: Kenneth "Red" Parker Jr. is a brilliant psychologist-turned-ruthless bank robber who becomes Hancock's most personal foe. Introduced to the film by taking dozens of hostages—including kids—at a bank and gunning down any police officers who try to save the Day, Red threatens to blow each and every hostage to pieces if Hancock doesn't help him rob the bank. After losing his hand to and being arrested by the hero, Red later escapes prison with a few thugs and stages an armed attack at a hospital Hancock is in, endangering the patients and doctors with gunfire as Red tries to kill Hancock and mortally wounds his Love Interest in the process.

  • Kiss Kiss Bang Bang: Harlan Dexter is a corrupt Hollywood executive who schemes to rid himself of his daughter so as to keep his late wife's insurance all to himself. Forcibly committing his daughter Veronica to a mental institution and hiring a doppelganger to portray her in public so as to hand all of the insurance off to Dexter, the criminal later murders Veronica and her doppelganger Mia as well, even though Dexter had taken her on as a lover. Seeking to silence any other loose ends, Dexter subjects Harry Lockhart to genital torture via electricity while planning the same for his partner Perry, after which Dexter intends to have both them and their friend Harmony killed to get away with his heinous actions.

  • Green Room: Darcy is the aging leader of a gang of Neo-Nazis, out to cover up his massive drug running business when the Ain't Rights band stumbles into it. Though playing himself off as a reasonable man to try to trick the band into surrendering to him and keep his men in line, Darcy abuses his gang on a whim and actually intends to have the entire band either ripped apart by fighting dogs or butchered with machetes, then frame their deaths as wild animal attacks to cover his tracks. Darcy maims and kills several of the Ain't Rights this way—having one of his own members shot dead when he tries to help the group escape—and later fatally poisons the drug stash of some of his other minions, killing them all as punishment for unintentionally exposing Darcy's heroin trade to the Ain't Rights.

  • Spree: Kurt Kunkle is a young, psychopathic "live streamer" with a craving for fame and adoration. After years of failing to gain any sort of following across social media, Kurt decides to livestream himself going on a killing spree across Los Angeles, starting out by serving people poisoned bottles of water before branching out to feeding them to dogs or taking power drills to their skulls. Murdering over a dozen people through a single night and driving through a homeless camp to run down any vagrants he can, Kurt directs his attentions towards comedian Jessie, trying to kill her while bragging he'd even rape her if it would bring in more viewers for his stream. Kurt even reveals he kicked off his spree by murdering his mother, and rounds the night off by executing his cowering dad as well, cementing to all that underneath his friendly, energetic exterior, Kurt is a despicable lunatic.

  • Star Wars: General Grievous is the brutal cyborg commander of the Separatist droid army, seeking to win the Clone Wars and bring the entire galaxy under Separatist rule. Appointed by Count Dooku to lead the war effort in destabilizing the Galactic Republic, Grievous orchestrates a variety of droid attacks across the galaxy, involving entire planets being razed, civilizations starved, and countless other war crimes committed by those in service to Grievous. A vicious sadist with a taste for Jedi killing, Grievous has butchered dozens of Jedi and Padawans over the years, collecting their lightsabers and braids as trophies and even torturing Master Koth to near-death to stroke his own ego. Over the course of the Clone Wars, Grievous uses the Malevolence to try to kill tens of thousands of wounded clones at a medical facility, commits genocide against the Nightsister clan down to the children, bombs Coruscant to cause a destructive blackout and prolong the galactic war, and tries to wipe out the Jedi Temple and its hundreds of occupants. Grievous is an utter madman with no loyalty or care for anything but himself—willing to execute his own minions by the dozen and even openly threaten Dooku himself—and earns his reputation of fear and disgust from the Jedi, who place near-sole blame on Grievous for the extent of horrors brought about by the Clone Wars.

  • Big Guy and Rusty the Boy Robot:

    • "The Champ": Po the Obliterator is a posturing brute out to prove himself as the best fighter in the universe. Po travels to a world and threatens to destroy it unless its best fighter challenges him to a duel. After invariably defeating his opponent through cheating if need be, Po takes his fallen foe as a frozen trophy, kept in containers lining his ship for him to mock as he so pleases. Arriving on Earth and forcing the Big Guy into combat, Po flies into a rage when Rusty saves the Big Guy armor from Po's captivity, prompting Po to rampage on Robopolis and threaten to destroy the whole planet. Even when beaten down by Big Guy and showed mercy, Po feigns remorse only to try to wipe out Earth anyway "just for laughs" out of spite at being defeated.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#260145: May 14th 2021 at 1:27:44 PM

Oh right yeah.

  • Trask: You can't make me do this! You were designed to protect humans from mutants!
  • Master Mold: That is not logical. Mutants ARE human! Therefore humans must be protected from themselves

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Pikamencer079 Since: Jul, 2018 Relationship Status: Married to the job
#260146: May 14th 2021 at 1:30:18 PM

If you bring up Master Mold's programming as a reason against being a Complete Monster, I'll have to tell you about Ultron, specifically the version of the character from Next Avengers: Heroes of Tomorrow. In his writeup, it's stated that he was programmed to bring about order to the world, yet had enough agency to interpret the definition of "order" as "I should be the one giving orders."

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#260147: May 14th 2021 at 1:37:20 PM

  • The Big Guy and Rusty the Boy Robot: Dr. Hieronymous Neugog was a wannabe Mad Scientist before a freak accident transformed him into a brain-eating monstrosity. Neugog sucks out the minds of many unfortunate people who get in his way, even people Neugog admits has no valuable knowledge to him whatsoever, and at the end of his first episode plans to attack a convention filled with hundreds of brilliant minds for him to snack upon. Even when a rival brain-eater forces Neugog to team up with the heroes, Neugog betrays them at his earliest convenience and attempts to take all the minds his rival has devoured for himself.

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#260148: May 14th 2021 at 1:58:40 PM

[up][up] Context is key, can you show a scene similar to the one with Master Mold where he misinterpreted his programming and still thinks he is doing the right thing or not?

Edited by Overlord on May 14th 2021 at 2:00:26 AM

TellAll111 Since: Jun, 2010
#260149: May 14th 2021 at 2:46:03 PM

[tup] for Stillson, Kalmaar and Sub-Zero.

Edited by TellAll111 on May 14th 2021 at 2:46:36 AM

PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#260150: May 14th 2021 at 3:17:18 PM

I'm gonna abstain on Bi-Han Solo Zero cause I haven't watched the film yet and wanna see it without many spoils. I mean, it's not gonna be a great plot but even so -

...holy heck, Grievous got approved??? When did that happen? I skipped a few pages cause of an EP I wanted to skip cause of spoilers. Is that when?

And I thought getting that one version of him as an MB was fun.


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