During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Cut Brian.
As for Po, well, we have the canon version of Master Oogway listed as a Magnificent Bastard... and yes, I am just adding to the joke, I do not actually want someone to try and find a Complete Monster Po.
Edited by PolarPhantom on May 14th 2021 at 8:09:17 AM
Although, again, we have a CM SpongeBob; a CM Count Chocula; and a CM Kirby, so...
Alright, so this candidate here is one that was discussed and cut during the early days of the thread - all the way back in 2013. Now I'll admit that there's a concern here, but with how our standards have changed since then, I figured he's at least worth the EP.
What is the work?
The Dead Zone is a 1983 film based off of the Stephen King novel of the same name. In it, Johnny Smith wakes up after a five year coma caused by a car crash, only to discover that he has psychic powers. Among other things, he can see someone's future when he touches them. He uses this power in a variety of different ways, including helping solve a murder spree in his home town, but eventually, he happens to cross paths with an up and coming politician, and that's when the stakes get high.
Who is Greg Stillson? What does he do?
Greg Stillson is the politician in question. Seeming to be a genuine populist candidate for the US Senate, Stillson very quickly shows himself to be an insane sociopath with a messiah complex a mile high. He shows his true colors when he breaks into the office of a journalist who wrote a negative editorial of him. He waxes poetically about how he's seen in a vision that he will become President of the United States and has "already accepted that responsibility", so no one's going to stop him - right before he blackmails the journalist with photos of him with a mistress. When the journalist implies that he'll publish the story anyway, Stillson says he won't, because otherwise he'll have his bodyguard "take your goddamn head off".
At a rally the next day, he crosses paths with Johnny and shakes his hand, giving Johnny a view of his future. In it, Stillson has gone completely mad, saying that he saw in a dream that it was his destiny to fire off the nukes in the country's arsenal, and that he is the true voice of the people who will go down in history for it. When the Attorney General (at least I think that's who he is) refuses to help him, Stillson's rage peaks and says that he'll either scan his own hand, or he'll cut it off and use it instead, so the poor sap does it. Stillson completes the sequence, then invites in the Vice President and the Secretary of State - although they say that they've reached a diplomatic solution to this crisis, Stillson couldn't care less.
Having seen enough, Johnny goes full-fledged Hitler's Time Travel Exemption Act and decides to kill him to prevent this future from coming to pass. When Stillson is giving a speech in a church the next day, Johnny grabs a rifle and takes a shot. While he misses, it freaks Stillson out enough that he straight up grabs a baby out of his mothers arms to use him as a Human Shield, and once the crisis is over and he learns that a photographer took pictures of it, he demands that his bodyguard find the photographer. When he denies ever seeing on, he storms off in a rage, only upset that he never learned where the assassin came from.
Just before the movie ends, Johnny grabs his ankle and sees a vision wherein Stillson's rise to power has been stopped due to the baby shield, and Stillson quietly kills himself in his home with his aspirations dead in the water.
Any mitigating factors? Freudian Excuse?
On the one hand, the film removes the things that keep his book counterpart from counting - his mother is completely absent, and while the book keeps it ambiguous whether him shooting the nukes is insanity or just incompetence, the film removes the ambiguity to make him an Omnicidal Maniac. However.... there's the issue of if we can hold the nukes against him, but personally I think we can.
The movie makes it clear that while he will go even more insane in the future, he's already most of the way there. The scene with the journalist reveals that he's already getting his "visions" of the future, he switches from calm and collected to smashing glasses at the drop of a hat, he's already willing to resort to murder to get what he wants, and when his life is on the line, he throws a baby in front of him just to save himself. His messiah complex is already visible clear as day, already calling himself the "true voice of the people", so it's very clear that even if he's not currently thinking "I'm going to nuke everyone", he's only a stone's throw away from getting there. Especially because the future scene shows him saying that he got his "destiny" in a dream - he's literally just a good night's sleep away from it.
Plus, Johnny's visions of the future are shown to be absolute fact - unless he intervenes, what he sees is what will happen (contrast that with Stillson's "visions" which are just self-serving BS), no doubt about it. The fact that we see the act with such clarity in this scene
means it's not offscreen either. I'll use the two baddies we discussed from Zack Snyder's Justice League as an example - while the terrorist we discussed has lofty dreams but no real indication that he can achieve them, Darkseid ends up succeeding in the Bad Future we see and thus it gets mentioned on his entry (yes, I know that Darkseid has other things getting him up here, I'm just making the comparison). Plus, the fact that the narrative treats Johnny as in the right for this overall just adds to it - he is justified for killing Stillson because unless he does, Stillson is going to destroy the world with a smile on his face and a hymn on his lips.
So overall, while he might not quite be as insane as he is in the future, he's already most of the way there, and the fact that we see it happen so clearly and that we know it will happen unless it's stopped makes me think we can count it.
Is he heinous enough?
This is why whether or not we count his future actions matters. If we can't, then he's nowhere near it - he's got blackmail, an Implied Death Threat, and a baby Human Shield on his rap sheet, which would flunk even within the movie itself. However, if we do count his future actions for the reasons I listed, then he more than meets it. It's made very clear that his nukes will kill millions of people (the General says they'll go down as the greatest mass murderers in history), which would stand out even among King's other works, especially since he's not a monster, alien, or Satan allegory, he's just a human with too much power and too few marbles.
Final verdict?
Personally, I think he keeps. We see the future so vividly, it's shown to be an absolute certainty unless he's stopped, and he's clearly already insane, so I think we can hold him responsible for it. What about you?
Hmm, leaning yes. Hell, didn't we give Ch'Rell from a Bad Future episode his own entry?
fLeaning on yes to the politician.
from me
Okay so I got a Ninjago possible candidate from the latest season for which the wait time limit has passed.
What is the Work
Ninjago: Masters of Spinjitzu is an ongoing 2011 Canadian-American cartoon centered around the fictional land of Ninjago, a world protected by a team of ninja-themed superheroes who fight against all sorts of opponents throughout its many seasons: from skeletons, snakes, robots, demons, stone warriors, ghosts, spirits, etc.
The latest season is called "Seabound" dealing with the Ninja travelling to the underwater kingdom of Merlopia and trying to prevent a war between its inhabitants and the surface dwellers as well as the awakening of the ancient beast, Wojira.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
The candidate is the season's Arc Villain, Prince Kalmaar, son of the King of Seatopia, Trimaar and adoptive elder brother to Benthomaar, who wishes to wage war on the surface to conquer it. To that end he plans to awaken Wojira, a colossal sea snake who he plans to use to personally destroy the surface world, however his efforts are kept at bay initially by his father and adoptive brother, forcing him to use underhanded techniques and eventually worse to get it done.
In the past Benthomaar saved his life and even helped him find clues to awaken Wojira as Bentho was unaware of his brother's evil plans and the latter had faked wanting to get close to him, but Kalmaar never returned the favor nor even felt gratitude for it, hating his adopted brother purely out of egotistical reasons. Afterwards he finds Wojira's amulet in the temple and mistreated his own workers to get it working.
When the Ninja eventually get tangled in his plans, he ends up murdering his own father to take up the throne and frames the Ninja for it. During his following pursuits he would attempt to kill them in many ways, such as sicing sharks to maul them, trying to drown them or having his soldiers do so.
After he eventually obtains the amulet and awakens Wojira controlling it with a special magic trident, he uses her to create a tsunami and flood Ninjago with it, then prepares to have his soldiers finish the not-very-implict job of exterminating the surface dwellers. When the Ninja and Benthomaar confront him atop the monster, he attempts to kill his own brother and resume his destruction and is only stopped Nya destroys the artifact that he uses causing Wojira to turn on him and eat him; afterwards Nya destroys Wojira for good and uses her power to undo Kalmaar's destruction.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Not at all, Kalmaar is simply a power-hungry, prejudiced and selfish asshole who wants to start an unnecessary war with the surface solely to rule it, while also harboring no real love or loyalty to either his people or even his family, who are disposable pawns to him at best and straight-up obstacles to be removed at worst. He has no issue or remorse with killing his benevolent loving father, and neither has any issue with killing his adoptive brother or leaving him to die when he tries to stop him, even mocking him for his status as an adopted prince and taunting him about how their father should've left him to die when they met. He only ever fakes being kind to his brother to get what he wants, but otherwise doesn't cares one bit about him and only keeps him alive for pragmatic reasons.
The show gives a reason for him possibly turning to hate the humans, as it is described that humanity banished the inhabitants of Merlopia to live underwater, but even that excuse is flimsy as he shows no real interest in the well-being of his people, better shown by the aforementioned patricide, instead doing things to essentially stroke his ego by "righting" the wrong.
In fact, the showrunners have described him as the "Worst Villain Yet" and it shows in his utter pettiness and hatred of the surface-dwellers as well as with a callous disregard for the lives of his own people and family.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Despite the amount of heinous actions done by other Ninjago villains they all have mitigating factors to them. Chen did start a war between humanity and serpentine, but was pretty disconnected from the actual events not doing much during it, instead letting both sides do most of the fighting while he acted as a discord-sowing mouthpiece to keep it going furthermore casualties there are ambiguous and so far unknown. Harumi killed her adoptive parents in a bombing who she didn't like to begin with, but it was implied she didn't feel all that great about it and on top of that had her limits to the destruction of her actions. The only other beings with kills are the Great Devourer and Lord Garmadon, but both of them have serious agency issues (Great Devourer is implied to be Made of Evil and isn't shown to be sapient enough, and Garmadon's evil acts are partially driven by an evil corruption).
Final Verdict?
A keeper for me, he has no real redeeming qualities, his plan would've gone genocidal in nature had he succeeded without a doubt given the tsunami and doesn't cares about avenging anything but his pride.
Edited by VengefulBale on May 14th 2021 at 11:09:52 AM
Prettiest Meta Knight Gijinka, nglI can give a
Kalmaar
At the very least that trying to wipe out ninjago in a genocide like that at least puts him on par with the absolutely most heinous of the show being eldtrich type threats (the preeminent And great devourer.)
Hes above most of the others big bad types who usually just want to take it over.
Edited by miraculous on May 14th 2021 at 9:04:04 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."I don't see an issue with Stillson
to him, we have approved candidates from Bad Futures before.
Stillson
First for Martin Sheen ?
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."I'm curious about something. Can The Man Behind the Man qualify as a Complete Monster if they use their servant to do potentially heinous things, and outright give them a Cruel and Unusual Death if the servant finds out and/or disobeys?
There is something I just learned about Brian that makes me hesitant about him being cut, apparently, at one point he states he likes being a Serial Killer, still looking for the exact line though.
Found it here
at 1:12:28.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on May 14th 2021 at 9:31:13 AM
Thanks for the reminder, ACW.
So for Invincible (2021)? Nobody keeps... yet. Nolan's about the same as he was in the comics, as is Robot. Other villains either have their sympathetic moments, well-intentioned goals, or they don't breach the large heinous standard. With luck, we'll see Thragg in future seasons.
For Yasuke? There might be two keeps. Key word(s) being "might be".
- The most obvious one is the Dark Damiyo, the one behind everything that happens. She's a demon who sends her generals out to cause carnage, kills them should they fail her, isn't afraid to Mind Rape people, and wants to bring Hell on Earth. Thing is though, when she first meets the little magical girl Saki in the Astral Plane, she tells her that she was "trapped here for hundreds of years, molded by it." That's never elaborated on afterwards, and it's never outright stated she was turned evil because of her imprisonment; it could be referring to how she got her powers, but that's all we get.
- The other one is Abraham, who wants to conquer Europe with Saki's powers. He doesn't do much beyond torture people (including Saki), and the only way he could potentially keep is that we see a graveyard beside his hideout (an abandoned church) and he kills someone in an open grave, so it kinda implies all those graves were from people he's killed (or it could just be Fridge Horror speaking, since it's never outright stated).
So if you guys feel either of these two warrant an EP, let me know.
It's Spooky Month!

Honestly going to go with
Brian.
Seems to genuinely unbalanced.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."