During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Linen Man.
.
Thank you ravok for giving me this. Thank you so much.
Anyway finally ending my dry spell of candidates.
Whats the work?
Justice League: Gods and Monsters is a 2015 movie of the DC Universe Animated Original Movies line. It is not based on the comic of a similar name, but features an original story by Bruce Timm of DC Animated Universe fame. While his art style makes a return compared to other recent DC animation, the movie is essentially an Elseworlds tale.
In this Alternate Universe, the Justice League is just the trio of Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman and they're not the same people we know and love. Superman is General Zod's son, not Jor-El's, and he was adopted by an illegal immigrant couple instead of the Kents; Batman is the vampiric Kirk Langstrom, normally the villain Man-Bat, instead of Bruce Wayne; and Wonder Woman is Bekka of the New Gods, not Diana of the Amazons.
The plot of the film revolves around the Justice League being framed for the murders of prominent scientists. They investigate these murders while dealing with mounting pressure from the US government to shut them down. The film also explores their origin stories in some depth.
Now we already have Harley up from the sorta prequel series but how about someone from the prequel comics.
Dr. Jackson Alpert/Doctor Psycho/Imperiax?
A member of the CIA group known as project MKUltra
, Psycho got his nickname for his experiments in mind control that were used on innocent people. Alpert was eventually kicked out as he wanted to "evolve humanity" in his own words so went to become the doctor for a groups of hippes in the 60's called the haries. Becca aka wonder woman joined the group and diverged what he was doing which was experimenting on the I'll resulting in Body Horror in order to get "evolution"' The leader Joe convinced her that Psycho was just helping them as they were ill and that they had volunteered. Psycho convinced him he could help them. Becca knew that something was wrong with this slimy prick but didn't interfere at least till Pyscho upgraded the people into mindless monsters using Becca's mother box Crystal. And sicced them on her and the rest. Joe tried to stop him when he realised what Psycho was going to do and that he was a psychopath with a God complex but Psycho attacked him and left the compound. Becca was able to use her mother box to thankfully return the victims to normal.
Taking the name Dr. Jackson Alpert, Pyscho became a renowned and beloved doctors in medicine and science. In present day, Psycho founds the future people, enhanced metahumans who were wealthy people who paid top dollar too have themselves upgraded. He promises the world a world without disease or poverty. What Alpert fails to mention is that the people who paid top dollar are his lucky subjects. In reality most of his test subjects get horrifically mutated into mindless monsters for Alpert's scientific curiosity.
Anyway he promises peace on earth and superman and wonder woman go to his site to investigate. Their he offers superman an upgrade and that he could be greater. Supes thinks it over and agrees but backs out after the experiments are painful. Anyway we know find our that his "perfect subjects need to be upgraded in order to avoid decay, he ends up blackmailing one saying hell let her die of she Disney give him millions when she's already paid him that lampshadimg that he's quite a greedy man and has her painfully mind raped when she objects.
Anyway Batman arrives to help and reveals that Alpert is psycho. Psycho sends his monsters to attack the heroes and defeats them. He shows them that his future people have stations all around the world and have lost if due to psychosis from his experiments and are trying to start revolutions to have the lesser people put under foot. Alpert just shrugs that tell be in charge at the end of the day anyway so doesn't mind the chaos.
Anyway Alpert's mind rape victims frees herself and helps the others escape w/o kill alpert and then go to the cities to stop the future people. Alpert meanwhile it turns out upgraded himself into a biomechanucal giant which activates upon his death called "Imperiax"'
Anyway Imperiax reveals to the heroes to create "his peace". He will wipe out the free will of humanity and superimpose it with his own mind stating it will bring peace to the world. The trinity call him out that this will be under his terms. He mind controls them and has then attack the city and destroy the military well he begins to wipe the minds of the citizens. Luckily wonder woman's motherbox snaps her out of it and she Fred's the others. She teleports Imperiax to Chernobyl so the fight won't be able to hurt anyone else. Their they use the mother box to drain him of his power and revert him to human before killing the bastard for good.
Mitigating factors?
Nah Psycho likes to claim he's helping humanity become better but underneath that he's just a cold sociopath who wants to mold it to his own image. Like how he promises people he'll help them with their illnesses but instead forcefully extorts them for millions or cruelly manipulating people to turn them into monsters be has no issues with killing or having himself exert his mind over all of humanity.
Hes just a scumbag with a God complex with delusions of grandeur and the heroes call him out on it.
Heinous standard?
So psycho/Imperiax is way worse then all the villains of this verse but the Big Bad of the movie Will Magnus. Magnus abused and killed his wife causing him to snap and belief humanity were inherently evil if he court do something like that , turns batman into a vampire monster our of jealousy, murderers a few scientists including a child Victor stone to cover up his plans and tries to destroy humanity individuality. Magnus does apologise to batman as he's dying and feels remorse for what happened at the end of the day so,is a no go.
So psycho I think is still an easy keep. His plan in scale replicates magnus in trying to wipe out humanities free will but he's also got way more unique and horror crimes to his belt. Horrific experimentation Ingo monsters, Mind Rape on various victims, cruel manipulations where he eggs on his Victims when in the end they lose their minds to him. His massacres actually kill more people then Magnus does from what we see as well.
Conclusion?
Classic egomaniacal psycho with a God complex.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
to Psycho and a big
to The Linen Man I also have my own candidate from The Irregulars to talk about. She from the episode "Chapter Three Ipsissimus"
What’s The Episode?
The synopsis of the episode is that a gruesome murder sends Bea and her crew undercover at a country estate to determine whether the killer is part of a secret paranormal society. The mastermind of these murder is Patricia Colman Jones.
Who Is She? What Has She Done?
Patricia Colman Jones is a witch who also happens to be a member of the occult cult, The Golden Dawn. Desiring to have Jessie’s powers for herself, Patricia murders the cult’s leader in a gruesome manner based on the tarot card, The Magician, having his throat slit and hanged upside-down where he is slowly bled to death.
This catches the attention of Sherlock’s brother Mycroft Holmes in which the crime scene had a magical spell which brainwashes Mycroft to bring Jessie and her friends to The Golden Dawn’s mansion. Upon their stay in the Manor, Patricia murder numerous of her fellow cult members in various fashions with the most notable murders being a man being stabbed by countless swords and two members being butchered and eviscerated to resemble the Lovers tarot card.
As The Irregulars are trying to figure out whose killing the cult members, Patricia swoops in and brainwashes Jessie into latching herself onto a lightning rod in a tower where it draining her life away while giving her powers to Patrica. However, Spike arrives and snaps Jessie out of Patricia’s brainwashing saving her life. Patricia would then try to kill Spike and Jessie but is soon stopped one of the cult members who shoots Patricia, killing her.
Freudian Excuse? Redeeming Qualities?
All that is known about Patricia is that she is a member an occult cult and that she wants to kill Jessie and steal her powers for herself, that’s it. She does offer one of the cult members a chance to work for her if she spares him, but when it’s made clear that he’s against her, Patricia has no problems trying to kill him along with Jesse and Spike. So yeah, zero on excuse and redeeming qualities.
Heinousness
Now among the one shot villains Patricia stands out in having the highest body count, with already four onscreen murder victims all of whom were horrifically butchered and mutilated, and tries to kill Jessie by slowly draining her life which would make Jessie suffer before dying and tries to kill off Jessie and Spike when they rebel.
Final Verdict?
I’ll leave it up to you guys.
@ Lightysnake: Feel free to point anything about Patricia that I may have missed
Edited by G-Editor on May 7th 2021 at 5:27:13 AM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
to Doctor Psycho and Patricia Colman Jones (the Magician doesn't depict someone hanged upside down, that's the Hanged Man)
I've been reading up on The New Order: Last Days of Europe and Yockey, Lysenko, Nobosuke and Dikiy all look like potential candidates to add here. I'll have to play more of the mod to decide for sure, though.
I have problems because I judge the qualifications of this trope on the completeness of someone's evil and not on their heinousness within the story itself, (See my Spellbinder entry that was expunged.) but these guys all look pretty disastrous for the world at large.
The potential problem here is that all these guys only have the POTENTIAL to take control and start being really heinous, while the ones we have now are all already doing bad stuff when the games starts. A character can start out as a Nominal Hero or Well-Intentioned Extremist and eventually become a complete monster (Griffith, per example. Also Light Yagami, who I go back and forth on.), but a character that can become one in a video game with multiple choices is a harder sell.
Edited by Orangutans on May 7th 2021 at 3:58:19 AM
Yes to Patricia.
Yes to Psycho as well. So Justice League: Gods and Monsters has someone from the short and prequel comic, but not the film itself.
Mortal Kombat (2021) kicks ass
Sub-Zero (no, not him; his brother, aka the future Noob Saibot) probably counts; Shang Tsung may count. I'll have the EP(s) tomorrow. I'm also calling any potential sequels or spinoffs.
Edited by ACW on May 7th 2021 at 7:11:30 AM
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Most of them have been discussed before.
- Yockey is far from heinous enough to count... Yes, you know we're dealing with a Crapsack World when a fascist boot-licker of Nazi Germany is small potatoes when compared to some of the other dictators.
- Lysenko is a bit too Ax-Crazy; dude genuinely believes that the people of Magnitogorsk love him for torturing them.
- Nobosuke is honestly terrifying but I can't remember if he does anything beyond starting Order 44.
- Don't know exactly who Dikiy is but he must be really bad if you think he's up there with Taboritsky, a guy who deploys chemical weapons against every single racial minority he can find and casually slaughters portions of his own people on a daily basis.
Taboritsky actually isn't considered a Complete Monster or listed as one because of his Cry for the Devil moment at his death. You seem to imply he counts via syntax though this site disagrees.
Agreed, Yockey isn't heinous enough, just a Hate Sink. Lysenko IS insane, but so are the Aryan Brotherhood, and their 2 leaders are listed. Haven't played enough of the japanese route to know for certain about him. The last one is only in post-taboritsky fallout content that hasn't been fully implemented right now.
Just because someone doesn’t count as a CM doesn’t mean that they don’t count toward the heinous standard - that’s what Cr0w was primarily implying there
