During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
to the MLP Fan Works page and quote.
Yes, W is short for "ACW". There is no need to dogpile on Lighty, however. I think he understands what I was trying to say now.
Keeping my yes for Ivy, since she seems to intend to operate on a larger scale than Joker (and use different methods), and all other concerns have been addressed.
I think I may have a re-evaluation to do on some Tarantino characters I previously dismissed, but I have messaged other people to get their input first. PM for details.
This is a YMMV item, you know.
Edited by SkyCat32 on Apr 26th 2021 at 10:12:03 AM
Yes to Johansson, Joseph, Sheridan, Calvin Wax, Bats, Frieza, and Poison Ivy.
No to Carlisle.
I have been listening to a podcast called Tommorow's Monsters and I am not sure if I should propose the main villain yet.
The main villain is a corporate executive who experiments on people, releases a dangerous product on the world, mentally tortures people and kills anyone who tries to stop her, but she is far from foiled by the time season 1 ends and so her story is not over ten, but season 1 is complete.
Edited by Overlord on Apr 26th 2021 at 7:23:23 AM
Didn’t mean to sound like I was dogpiling, just got
’d on what I was saying. Sorry if it came off like dogpiling
And that Corrupt Corporate Executive sounds like they’ve got potential - I say go for it, and we can revisit as necessary as the work continues if they keep
Hilarious yes to Ivy and obligatory writer is too much of a hands-off Greater-Scope Villain to count joke
@Largo People often group the four movies together despite the ridiculous tonal inconsistencies. Two-Face would possibly count if not for the clear moral agency issues and Penguin’s a tricky case because everything he does is absolutely heinous enough and completely unapologetic, but he’s still given the Alas, Poor Villain and Tim Burton clearly wanted him to be tragic given how he presented him. I’d bring up Laurel Hedare being in the same universe, but that movie is MORE THAN separate enough that it matters not and doesn’t need to be discussed any further.
By the way, do we separate the Joker entries now since there’s another keeper in that universe? That would be similar to over on MB where Catwoman is separated from the Dark Knight Trilogy keepers because she’s not in the same universe. I understand if we keep all three together though.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Apr 26th 2021 at 8:31:42 AM
There are only two Joker entries there and the Dark Knight doesn't even start with B. I say it's worth a split to B and D. Still, massive drop in quality post-Returns.
This is the second female Batman CM after Bianca Steeplechase, right?
Bats and Ivy, abstain on the rest.
there was Maro Ito (whose technically not a Batman villain but is an antagonist to the Bat Family, so it counts.) there was also the Gods and Monsters version of Harley Quinn
Edited by nwotyzal on Apr 26th 2021 at 8:43:51 AM
Here’s how things currently stand:
- Batman's Arch-Enemy, The Joker, qualifies for this trope as the Big Bad of these two live-action films:
- Batman (1989): The Joker, real name Jack Napier, is an insane, sadistic criminal. Murdering the young Bruce Wayne's parents, Jack is only stopped from killing the boy himself when his partner warns him the cops are approaching. After being transformed into the Joker, Jack goes on to kill the mob boss who betrayed him, before killing the other Mafia higher ups to take over the Gotham syndicate. Using Smylex mixed in with everyday products, Jack causes a string of deaths of unsuspecting innocents. Jack also abuses his girlfriend, Alicia Hunt, disfiguring and eventually killing her, before trying to seduce Vicki Vale immediately after her death. Taking advantage of Gotham's 200th anniversary parade, Jack tries to gas the gathered civilians with Smylex to amuse himself and takes out his frustration over Batman stopping his plans by killing his loyal second-in-command.
- The Dark Knight: The Joker is a self-described "agent of chaos" out to give Gotham a "better class of criminal". Introduced by killing each of his goons after a bank robbery, the Joker proceeds to exploit the mob's desire to be rid of Batman, casually murdering henchmen, politicians and police to force Batman to unmask himself. He also makes the lawyer attempting to unmask Batman a target; ties a crime boss to a pile of money which he then burns; kills a gangster by making a pencil disappear...eraser-end first; blows up a hospital; leads police into a trap where they will shoot innocent civilians before getting killed by his men; attempts a Prisoner's Dilemma scenario to get a boatload of civilians and prisoners to blow each other up; and, primarily by manipulating a Sadistic Choice leading to Rachel Dawes's death, and then by mind raping an injured Harvey Dent in the hospital, is the driving force behind his transformation into Two Face. The Joker's main motivation is fun, but he also wants to show that anyone and everyone can and will become a monster if pushed far enough, or even if just given the chance. He's proven wrong, but doesn't care, just giving an annoyed shrug and attempting to blow the two boats sky high with his own detonator.
The split would probably look like this:
- Batman: Burton-Schumacher series:
- Batman (1989): The Joker, real name Jack Napier, is an insane, sadistic criminal. Murdering the young Bruce Wayne's parents, Jack is only stopped from killing the boy himself when his partner warns him the cops are approaching. After being transformed into the Joker, Jack goes on to kill the mob boss who betrayed him, before killing the other Mafia higher ups to take over the Gotham syndicate. Using Smylex mixed in with everyday products, Jack causes a string of deaths of unsuspecting innocents. Jack also abuses his girlfriend, Alicia Hunt, disfiguring and eventually killing her, before trying to seduce Vicki Vale immediately after her death. Taking advantage of Gotham's 200th anniversary parade, Jack tries to gas the gathered civilians with Smylex to amuse himself and takes out his frustration over Batman stopping his plans by killing his loyal second-in-command.
- Batman & Robin: Poison Ivy, real name Dr. Pamela Isley,
- The Dark Knight: The Joker is a self-described "agent of chaos" out to give Gotham a "better class of criminal". Introduced by killing each of his goons after a bank robbery, the Joker proceeds to exploit the mob's desire to be rid of Batman, casually murdering henchmen, politicians and police to force Batman to unmask himself. He also makes the lawyer attempting to unmask Batman a target; ties a crime boss to a pile of money which he then burns; kills a gangster by making a pencil disappear...eraser-end first; blows up a hospital; leads police into a trap where they will shoot innocent civilians before getting killed by his men; attempts a Prisoner's Dilemma scenario to get a boatload of civilians and prisoners to blow each other up; and, primarily by manipulating a Sadistic Choice leading to Rachel Dawes's death, and then by mind raping an injured Harvey Dent in the hospital, is the driving force behind his transformation into Two Face. The Joker's main motivation is fun, but he also wants to show that anyone and everyone can and will become a monster if pushed far enough, or even if just given the chance. He's proven wrong, but doesn't care, just giving an annoyed shrug and attempting to blow the two boats sky high with his own detonator.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Apr 26th 2021 at 8:51:33 AM
@ACW You’d think it’d have its own page already since the Dark Knight Trilogy does. Also, odd that we possibly consider Penguin or Scarecrow for this and of all characters, it’s Poison Ivy! Haha.
If no one objects, I might still give Penguin an EP just to clarify everything. I don’t expect him to count though (I wanted to go in deeper depth, but my doubt would probably tell me right away not to even bother then). Shall I send the separated entries to the drafts?
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Apr 26th 2021 at 9:00:28 AM
to Bats and Ivy.
Go ahead but I wouldn't bet on it. Not that I'm trying to shut down your idea but I couldn't even force myself to upvote Returns!Penguin.
I really don't think a Penguin EP is necessary. Between the Alas, Poor Villain and the fact that now Ivy incredibly out heinouses him, I just don't think it'll really accomplish anything.
He was saying that the Burton-Schmaker films don't have a series page together outside of a character page, not that the CMs need their own page
Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Apr 26th 2021 at 12:14:59 PM
@STAR I’d say much like the Joker, Penguin’s crimes are unique enough (Shreck in the same movie didn’t count before just based off his love for his son and now it’s definitely heinousness too). That said, yeah. There’s definitely an effort to make him empathetic even if it doesn’t quite match what we see (and it’s definitely not like Ahmanet where the writers thought empathy would be automatic and it ABSOLUTELY WASN'T).
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Apr 26th 2021 at 9:13:55 AM
I also have another from Robin of Sherwood after consideration...
What's the work?
Robin of Sherwood is a gem of programing from the 80s, a British series that blends Robin Hood's mythos with Pagan lore. Robin is the spiritual son of the nature god Herne the Hunter, forming his Merry Men while waging war agains tthe corrupt Sheriff of Nottingham, Robert de Rainult, his corrupt brother Bishop Hugo and their henchman Guy of Gisburne along with the ruthless Prince John (and the even more ruthless King Richard) in the background...
Now, the series is known for a few things...and actually started the whole "Saracen Party Member" thing that's become ingrained in the mythos...but the series was also known for one major twist: Robin Hood fucking dies. Season 2 ends with Robin's death, and Herne choosing a new heir to the title, played by none other than Jason Connery (yes, son of Sean)...I'll be covering one of the few recurring villains: Gulnar, priest of Fenris.
who is Gulnar?
Played by none other than Richard O'Brien (better known as Riff-Raff, or the one who wants to do the time-warp again), Gulnar is a raving nutjob of a sorcerer, total creep and the high priest of Fenris who stands in opposition to the orderly nature of Herne. First introduced after Robin of Locksley's death, Gulnar is the chief sorcerer of Marian's later captor, the evil Lord Owen who wants Marian to be his. Gulnar? Basically tries to go magical date-rape on this and gives Owen a magic potion to remove Marian's free will. It's as creepy as it soudns, yes, while Gulnar force-feeds it to her so Owen can "wed" her. Owen is killed, to Gulnar's irritation...seeking revenge for the ruination of his plots, Gulnar later sets up a plot to injure Merry Man Much the Miller (sya that four times fast), to lure in the Merries to a village of..
....okay, here's where it gets weirdly supervillain-y. Gulnar, rather than just...use his powers of magic and illusion to like lure them to a cliff and push them over, uses a ritual to revive the lost village of Crom Cruach, named for an ancient Celtic demon that burnt to nothing centuies ago. Why? So he can go through a complicated ritual to summon Crom Cruach the demon, kill everyone in the village again and unleash the demon all to gain revenge for-....yeah, it doesn't make much sense. Gulnar sacrifices a villager or two, but he is defeated and Crom Cruach's resurrection is prevented, so yay.
Fast forward to the series finale where Gulnar is leading a bunch of guys in wolf get up to massacre everything they find through an abbey so Gulnar can summon Fenris. Because he is insane and has no idea how basic cause-effect works, Gulnar intends to poison and kill Herne rather than use his vast magic powers and power base to take over the country, but he begins having his men destroy grain storages across the land to condemn Nottingham to starvation...Gulnar intends to enact the Time of the Wolf, an apocalyptic future, where in the words of his right-hand man and leader of the warriors, Grendel: "The Sons of Fenris will lay waste to this land and kill all who stand against them."
To pull off the death of Herne, Gulnar has created an evil clone of Robin II, with a wolf aspect to hunt and kill Herne....and for insurance, he has the women and kills of Wickham Village corraled into the abbey with execution ready should anyone resist him.
I'm gonna be quoting the amazing reviewer Candle-Dance because it's too much delicious snark not to: "Gulnar, who takes far too much pleasure in revealing critical plot details to his enemies, screeches that he’ll kill the other Merries, send The Toothed Man to destroy Herne, and then sic the creature on innocent villagers until Robin’s name is utterly blackened, the outlaws’ leader everywhere cursed."
Gisburne joins the Sons, and when Sheriff de Rainult refuses, Gulnar orders him taken for "sport" before declaring they'll use what's left as a sacrifice to Fenris.
Things go south, the heroes win and the Man-Beast gets free...and when Gulnar tries to regain control? The Man-Beast instead seizes his throat and throttles the life from him, killing the mad sorcerer at last....before being slain by Robin. So the way the series ends? De Rainult and Gisburne have reconciled and take the Man-Beast's corpse to prove they killed Robin Hood to King John (unaware it's crumbling to dust), Marian has decided things are too much and parts from Robin to join a convent, the Time of the Wolf has been delayed but Robin fears it cannot be stopped forever....the series was sadly canceled here, Robin vowing to carry on the fight, and we can only speculate to what the future may have held.
Heinousness?
With the wicked Morgwyn of Ravenscar, Gulnar sets the standard. as nasty as de Rainult and Gisburne can be (neither count for a variety of reasons)...the evil sorcerers blow 'em away. Gulnar tries to facilitate a rape, the only other guy who gets close is Gisburne who accuses a woman who wouldn't sleep with him of being a witch (de Rainult even snarks "Yes, Gisburne. A very pretty witch...) But Gulnar's other massively reaching crimes and attempts to enact the Time of the Wolf? Yeah, he goes well out of his league.
I mean, Gulnar is fucking insane and has no idea how basic cause-effect matters work, so there's that, but he still manages to get enough done.
Mitigating issues?
does it sound like Gulnar has anything resembling subtlety, restraint or deep nuance?
Conclusion?
Easy keeper.
