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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#257552: Apr 24th 2021 at 6:03:04 PM

Yes to Dexter

I'd say you're good, Bull, nice job there

Well, brace yourself everyone, because this version of Nihilus gets one hell of an Expansion Pack Past. I'll do my damndest to keep it brief, but we've already got a lot to talk about.

Who is Darth Nihilus? What does he do?

The man who would later become Darth Nihilus began his life as a Jedi serving under Revan during the Mandalorian Wars. While originally a just and well-meaning man, he began succumbing to vengeance as the war went on, executing war prisoners and looking forward to wiping out the Mandalorians entirely once the war was over. Growing to love the fighting and taking his time with victims, Nihilus was present when the Mass Shadow Generator was activated, turning him into a Force Wound and giving him a monstrous Horror Hunger. After years spent devouring everything in sight, he was found by Darth Traya and became Darth Nihilus - and then Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords occurs. At the end of the story, instead of dying like in canon, he instead possesses his mask and survives the encounter.

Over the next decades, he would be passed around from group to group, as he would drain everyone he encountered as he attempted to regain enough strength to escape the mask, gaining a kill count in the dozens in the process. Unfortunately for him, he eventually demonstrated this ability in front of a group of immune androids. Terrified of Vader getting their hands on him, they drop him on a random planet that doesn't have space travel yet - Remnant. For centuries, he would then use what little strength he had to manipulate people into causing multiple wars by pretending to be the God of Darkness, causing thousands of deaths. His reign of terror was eventually stopped when General Alixandre Arc hid the mask in a cave, but decades later he manipulates Jaune Arc into picking it up, and the fic begins.

When Jaune picks it up, Nihilus turns him into a Force Wound like himself so that he could eventually take his body. Over the next weeks, Nihilus goes to work tearing his psyche to shreds, bombarding him with nightmares so that he can't sleep, driving him to obsession over the mask and the Force powers it provides, and increasing his hunger until it begins knocking him out so he can drain the world around him. He even encourages Jaune to Jedi Mind Trick Weiss so that he can "take her" for himself (the Jedi Mind Trick is given a huge Cerebus Retcon here in general), which Jaune almost does without realizing what he's doing. Eventually, Nihilus has Jaune drain the life from some Grimm, which drives Jaune to madness.

After corrupting Jaune into a delusional sociopath no better than Cinder, he continues manipulating Jaune into finally putting on his mask, which, after Jaune flies off the handle and attacks Pyrrha, he finally does, all while crying that all he wanted was just to be a hero. When Jaune puts on the mask, Nihilus gives him a Death of Personality and takes over his body, gloating that it had only been an issue of when, not if. He immediately goes on a killing spree, slaughtering Atlas soldiers in droves in incredibly graphic manners before he's confronted by students. He kills dozens of students as well, including once that he kills by taking Crescent Rose out of Ruby's hands, forcing her to watch and he crushes it into a cannonball, and then disintigrates someone's head with it. Tiring of the fight, he rips the Atlas airship out of the sky and crashes it into the Academy, beginning the Battle of Beacon.

Sensing a unique power from Cinder, he makes his way to her to take it for himself, draining from everyone and everything he comes across along the way. Along the way, we get a glimpse into his psyche, which reveals that he views himself as a god of destruction sent to destroy the entire universe, believing that the universe exists only to satisfy his hunger and nothing else. Intercepting Cinder, Emerald, Mercury, and Neo, he fights all of them, and while Neo escapes while he's distracted, he butchers Emerald and Mercury slowly (including ripping off his legs and letting him crawl away first before killing him), then tries to mind control Cinder into serving him as a slave - in a brief moment of clarity, she kills herself first, sending the powers to Pyrrha instead.

Enraged at the loss of this new power, he briefly collapses from the loss until his rage and power draw the Grimm Dragon to him. Sensing an opportunity, he kills and drains the dragon to regain his strength before making his way towards the powers once more. Along the way, he stumbles on and kills Adam Taurus, moving on to Beacon tower to continue his destruction and kill Pyrrha to take her Maiden powers for himself.

The fic is still ongoing, but it updates maybe once a month and seems to be winding down - if there's more information to include later on, he can come up again.

Is he heinous enough?

Easy thing out of the way - he wants to destroy the entire universe out of a belief that he's a god of destruction and everything only exists to satisfy his hunger. Even in the Star Wars EU, he'd stand out, much less here - easy yes.

Any mitigating factors? Freudian Excuse?

Well, canon Nihilus has agency issues because his hunger is so strong, especially because he doesn't really have much of a personality to go with it. Here, however, he gets a revamped personality and history, and I think it negates his agency issues.

It's established clearly that even before he became a Force Wound, back when he was a Jedi, the man who would become Nihilus was already a genocidal maniac who craved blood and suffering. He killed prisioners of war, preferred ripping his victims apart instead of just killing them, fully intended to commit genocide on the Manadalorians following the war, and did it all with a smile on his face - if there is an explanation for this, we never hear it. Rather than his Generic Doomsday Villain original counterpart, this Nihilus is an unrepentant sadist who believes that the entire universe exists for no other reason than to satisfy his hunger, believing himself to be a god of destruction and everyone else is simply a bug that exists to be stepped on. He takes his time with his victims, preferring to toy with them instead of kill them outright because he enjoys the blood too much, and just to top it all off, he attempts to commit both slavery (of Cinder) and rape (of Weiss, albeit through Jaune in that case). Plus, he goes so far as to turn Jaune into another Force Wound, essentially creating a second version of himself just to give himself a body. Overall, between his unsympathetic past, his added sadism, his God Complex, and his rape and slavery attempts, I think he outgrows his agency concerns.

Final verdict?

An excited yes for Nihilus, and thus my first CM vs. CM duo. What about you?

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Apr 24th 2021 at 9:59:38 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#257553: Apr 24th 2021 at 6:24:20 PM

Sure to Darth Nihilus.

Okay added the header.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
ASghhrv6ub Best Smile from Second star to the right. Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Best Smile
#257555: Apr 24th 2021 at 6:44:29 PM

[tup]Talapathy, Adam Taurus, Jake Rainey, Kenneth "Old Guy" Tyson, Feliks, Satan, Elijah Snow, Damek, Brian Boone, Charlotte, Dexter, Darth Nihilus

I am the one, I am the one, the godlike terror train, superior artificial brain, feel free to call me Blaine
YobabyColin Since: Apr, 2021 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
SumDumNerd LOCKDOWN PROCEDURES ENGAGED from [REDACTED] Since: May, 2017 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#257559: Apr 24th 2021 at 8:39:19 PM

[tup]Dexter and Nihilus

Edited by nwotyzal on Apr 24th 2021 at 8:39:34 AM

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#257560: Apr 24th 2021 at 8:40:16 PM

[tup]Feliks, Thalapathy, Racist Satan(?!?!?), and the Blade Trinity (har har).

Edited by HamburgerTime on Apr 24th 2021 at 10:40:45 AM

Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#257561: Apr 24th 2021 at 8:48:23 PM

[tup] to Darth Nihilus.

RobertTYL Since: Oct, 2019 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
#257564: Apr 24th 2021 at 10:00:44 PM

[tup] to Harlan Dexter and Darth Nihilus.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#257565: Apr 24th 2021 at 10:01:47 PM

By the way, a factoid I thought some people here might be interested in: the recent King in Black storyline has finally given a much belated comeuppance to one of Marvel’s most horrifying CM-Karma Houdini combos. Specifically... Mr. Fear is finally dead.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#257566: Apr 24th 2021 at 11:07:33 PM

Wow. How'd he die? Agonizingly?

Yes to Nihilus.

Edited by Scraggle on Apr 24th 2021 at 12:07:58 PM

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#257567: Apr 24th 2021 at 11:39:48 PM

[tup] Dexter and RWBY!Nihilus.

Edited by MasterN on Apr 24th 2021 at 11:40:00 AM

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
DrScavenge27 Since: Jul, 2020
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#257571: Apr 25th 2021 at 3:31:45 AM

Yes to Dexter and Nihilus.

Mind writing up Nihilus today so I can get him and Taurus together?

RK93 Since: Aug, 2020
#257572: Apr 25th 2021 at 3:31:48 AM

I heard that the Season 5B trailer is gonna release soon, so I looked back at a candidate that was previously rejected, and I think he might meet the cut after all.

What's the Work

Lucifer (2016) is a series that's currently on Netflix. It revolves around the Devil solving homicides alongside a detective and a few others.

Who is Prof. Jason Carlisle and what has he done?

Prof. Jason Carlisle is the secondary antagonist of Season 2.

Back before Season 2, Carlisle got in a car crash. Ultimately, he decided to save his carrier instead of his Uber driver, leaving the poor soul to die when the car exploded. His entire life and carrier was ruined, and Carlisle set to prove that when put in his situation, everyone would have chosen to save their carrier. He hired a guy named Burt to smuggle some poisons into Los Angeles, but they were stolen by a man who thought they were drugs. He first appears at the very end of "Stewardess Interruptus", where he strangles the man who stole his poisons.

In "Love Handles", Carlisle properly introduces himself and puts his experiment into motion. Lucifer Morningstar and Chloe Decker try to solve their latest case (with Chloe's painful to watch attempts at flirting), the murder of the 19-year old Rick Cormier who died by poisoning, they eventually cross paths with the actor Johnny Kane, who proclaims that he was contacted by a man (Carlisle) who said that if Kane won't carve up his own face in 24 hours, Rick will die. If Kane will do it, Carlisle will give an antidote to Rick. Since Rick is dead, we all know that, of course, Johnny didn't do it. We see the video-message on-screen through a laptop, where Carlisle put on a mask to hide his identity. Later on, it's revealed that to send the message, Carlisle hacked the e-mail of one porn-watching Matthew Hoffing to blame him for Rick's death.

While Lucifer and Chloe are investigating Matthew, it's revealed that just one hour before, Carlisle send another e-mail to Doctor Gwendolyn Scott, a surgeon, and repeated the process: Either Gwen destroys her hand, or Ashley Corbett will die of poisoning, 24 hours to decide, Gwen does it and antidote will be delivered, yadda yadda, Matthew isn't the killer. Detective Daniel Espinoza is send to Gwen while Lucifer and Chloe try to find Ashley. However, the doctors can't find a cure for Ashley as Carlisle used a different poison, so Gwen decides to destroy her hand. Carlisle is e-mailed the photo of Gwen's hand, and Carlisle sends the antidote. Later on, the gang finds out that Carlisle is the murderer and plans at least a dozen other targets. Lucifer, from experience, figures out that Carlisle has a big ego, and thus Chloe insults him via e-mail so they will contact eachother.

Seconds later, Carlisle responds via video-chat and takes off his mask after being told that his identity is known. After some slight conversation, Carlisle claims that Gwen destroyed her hand only because she was being watches (the hypocrite that Carlisle is, he can't realise that he was also watched, but still lef the poor driver to die). Carlisle "improves" his experiment - Benjamin Tibi, a innocent teenager, is kidnapped and right next to Leon Klem, a famous runner, who was also kidnapped. Leon has a hour to make his choice - He either pulls a lever and cuts off his leg, or Benjamin die-yadda yadda, you know the deal. Eventually, the gang manages to locate where Carlisle and his next victims are. However, the glass door to where Carlisle and the victims are is locked and the glass is bulletproof. Carlisle starts his experiment's final part - Chloe has the chance to enter the room where Leon and Benji are, so she can get the antidote without Leon cutting his leg off, saving the both. However, Carlisle drops some poison gas on the floor that will kill anyone. Putting a mask on, Carlisle escapes, leaving Chloe to make a choice. However, Lucifer is a mortal when around Chloe - When she isn't around, he goes back to his usual, immortal self. Lucifer orders Chloe to chase Carlisle while Lucifer waits until Chloe is far enough. Carlisle expects to be followed, and Chloe does so. During his scufle with Chloe on the ground, Carlisle injects Chloe with his poison. After a bit more chase, Lucifer finally turns immortal and saves Benjamin - Meanwhile, Carlisle is cornered by Chloe. Knowing that she will die in 24 hours thanks to the poison, Carlisle rants about how choice is an illusion and slashes his throat.

Carlisle returns in the next episode, "A Good Day to Die". Knowing that Carlisle is the only one who knows Chloe's antidote, that he didn't write down the antidote and that he's fucking dead, Lucifer willingly kills himself so he can go to Hell and confront Carlisle. After a while, Lucifer finds the door to Carlisle's Hell: The day when his life was ruined. Starting with leaving the Uber driver to die, everyone who saw it (actually demons in disguise) starts calling Carlisle a murderer, coward and monster, leaving Carlisle to only beg for them to stop. Confronted by Lucifer, Carlisle learns that he is, in fact, down in Hell. Lucifer claims that Carlisle can't escape this place until he thinks that he doesn't deserve it, and this has never happened so far. Lucifer claims that making amends might do the trick. Upon his orders, Carlisle writes down the antidote that will heal Chloe, but he still feels guilty, so he can't escape. Lucifer reveals himself to be the Devil by showing his face before leaving, with Carlisle letting out a Big "NO!" as his torture starts once again. Lucifer is later revived and manages to heal Chloe.

Freudian Excuse/Mitigating Factors

Nope. It might seem like Carlisle feels remorse because of his guilt but guilt and remorse aren't exactly the same thing. Marcus Pierce / Cain has shown remorse for the very thing that send him to Hell, for example, but there have been villains who didn't feel remorse but ended up in Hell - Malcolm Graham and Father Kinley never showed any hints of remorse but have been confirmed to be tortured in Hell (in fact, Kinley didn't even think he was going to Hell). He might also feel like Affably Evil thanks to some of his dialogue, but it seems more like Faux Affably Evil with how calm he is when explaining how innocent teens will die if someone won't mutilate themselves. He might also show some hints of honor because he did ultimately save Ashley - But again, someone had to destroy their fucking hand for that to happen. Not very honorable to me. He also had a wife, but she's mentioned only once, and not even by Carlisle.

Heinous Standard

Now, Lucifer has murder in pretty much every episodes thanks to the formula, so the standards are high. The only Complete Monster the series currently has, Julian McCaffrey, qualifies because of his human trafficking and sex slavery. However, most villains this series commit simple murders, with maybe some slight mutilation. However, Carlisle puts Sadistic Choice into his rap sheet - Heavy mutilation or a teenager dies. Something that no one else does. Not to mention that for ultimately a pretty minor villain with only two appearances (three if you count the cameo in "Stewardess Interruptus"), so he doesn't have much to work with (yeah, more than Julian has, but still), yet he pretty much wrecks more than just one Arc Villain (Kinley, Eve and Amenadiel when he was still a villain).

Verdict

A slight [tup]. I have one more villain in mind, but his story arc isn't over, so I have to wait a bit.

Edited by RK93 on Apr 25th 2021 at 12:33:11 PM

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#257573: Apr 25th 2021 at 5:15:50 AM

[tup] to Dexter and Darth Nihilus.

Um Jason Carlisle. Well he was originally voted down if memory serves me right cause he honestly seemed to believe his philosophy, that whilst he knew it was the wrong thing anyone would do the same in the situation and its just human nature.

Whether that's correct or not, what gets me is if the only thing that's holding him in hell is deep down he believes he deserves it, that sounds pretty disqualifying.

If Lucifer flat out states that's the reason Carlisle is here, that sounds pretty definite. Unless their is some suggestion he was lying to trick Carlisle into giving him the antidote, what's the general works tone on which version of hell is correct?

As such I'm leaning to [tdown]

Edited by MGD107 on Apr 25th 2021 at 5:31:30 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#257574: Apr 25th 2021 at 5:27:10 AM

[tdown]Carlisle

Sounds like he genuinely does feel bad for what be did but won't admitt it.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#257575: Apr 25th 2021 at 5:29:17 AM

Yeah, no to Carlisle. With the specific way Hell works, people only end up there if they feel guilt for their actions and believe at least on some level that they deserve their torture, so ironically enough going to Hell is pretty much an instant disqualifier.

Also, Kinley and Eve summon literal demons to the city, so I’m pretty sure they’re more heinous than you’re implying and it makes me doubt your heinousness argument a little.


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