TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Go To

During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#25701: May 25th 2014 at 1:04:17 AM

[up][up]There is exactly one person who counts from Pro Wrestling, and they have two murders to their name (the real reason is basically one person died in a match with him and to keep Kayfabe they had the character brag about killing him. Another died of unrelated reasons after a match and they used the same thing). As it stands, he is the baseline heinous standard for all of Pro Wrestling as a whole.

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#25702: May 25th 2014 at 1:21:30 AM

Its actions are explicable in terms of a mixture of sadism and curiosity, rather than guiding principles.

And curiosity isn't enough to suggest it doesn't think like us? Those bits from the ending, inasmuch as they're understandable at all, do suggest a real lack of comprehension of human (metaphorically speaking) morality. I'd say it's at least ambiguous enough to warrant a cut.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#25703: May 25th 2014 at 1:48:03 AM

In my mind, a lack of moral agency or Blue-and-Orange Morality in a vaguely humanoid creature has to be demonstrated, not assumed as a default or inferred. I am not a fan of applying another standard as such cases of slight ambiguity are frequent even in human candidates.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#25705: May 25th 2014 at 2:49:26 AM

I was using humanoid in the sense of behaviour and personality, not in the sense of appearance.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
BigglesTh9 Since: Jul, 2011
#25706: May 25th 2014 at 5:42:42 AM

Alright, so Oz writeups:

  • Timmy Kirk is a sociopathic murderer who gets by in Oz despite his mediocre intellect and physical strength, due to his sheer ruthlessness and treachery. A flashback shows that he was incarcerated for homicide after putting a baby (implied to be his own) in a rat-infested dumpster, over the desperate protests of its mother. Initially a low-ranking member of the Irish gang, he makes a name for himself in prison by betraying one gang for another routinely. He seals Jeremiah Cloutier in a wall to die a slow and painful death in response to the latter casting Kirk out of his gang for his erratic behaviour. After Father Mukada refuses to accept Kirk's reversion to Catholicism, Kirk responds by burning down Mukada's church in hopes of killing him. When Mukada survives the attack, Kirk continues to hound him with absurd allegations of sexual molestation. Kirk, by now facing execution, is simply happy that he might die knowing that the allegations could see Mukada permanently stripped of his priesthood.
  • Claire Howell is a sexually sadistic warden who rivals or surpasses the worst of the prison's inmates in cruelty. She is established early on as domineering and possessive, filing a false sexual harassment charge against Tim Mc Manus, after he tries to get her fired for a savage beating of an inmate that left the victim comatose. It is then seen that she routinely forces herself on inmates, who know that their refusal would be met with violent reprisal. She develops an erotic fixation on Ryan O'Reilly, rapes him repeatedly, and coaxes him into keeping quiet by killing a rival of his. She later offers to stop the abuse, on the condition that she can target Ryan's mentally handicapped brother Cyril instead. She later assists in cutting Enrique Morales' Achilles tendons after he proves a nuisance to the prison management. Her one arguably good act - refusing to have an abortion after she becomes pregnant from one of her rapes - is explicitly motivated by fear of divine retribution and does nothing to redeem her.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#25707: May 25th 2014 at 5:51:23 AM

[up]I tweaked them a little.
[nja]Alright, NOW I think Literature is almost ready; just needed the work HERE and the last one HERE done (if someone wants to add them with the formatting to the Sandbox, be my guest; this site REALLY, REALLY needs a quote feature for the forums just bugs mejust bugs mejust bugs me ).
[nja]DAMMIT!

edited 25th May '14 9:13:00 AM by ACW

BigBertha from Anytown, USA Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#25708: May 25th 2014 at 10:15:47 AM

I'm running a spell check on Literature.

In the meantime, should I start a subpage for Dungeons And Dragons?

Amazing discovery
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#25709: May 25th 2014 at 10:40:34 AM

[up]Well, it has its own folder for Tabletop Games; though it might not be a bad idea to move it to its own page. That way we can add the video game entries for Baldur's Gate and Planescape: Torment, and the Literature entries for Counselors and Kings and The Legend of Drizzt...Actually, let me move those latter two together.

BigBertha from Anytown, USA Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#25711: May 25th 2014 at 10:52:23 AM

What is with this sudden drive to sandbox new pages for freaking everything?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#25712: May 25th 2014 at 11:03:44 AM

[up]Hey, this one wasn't me; I'm just saying for this one it wouldn't be the worst idea.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#25713: May 25th 2014 at 11:04:15 AM

But why? Why would it be necessary?

BigBertha from Anytown, USA Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#25714: May 25th 2014 at 11:19:03 AM

I believe that subpages work best for works/franchises with at least 5 Complete Monsters.

Amazing discovery
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#25715: May 25th 2014 at 11:20:59 AM

BTW, I don't know if he does count, but somebody already added Verger to Hannibal.

xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#25716: May 25th 2014 at 11:44:18 AM

Well I have not played Wolfenstein The New Order yet due to outdated driver but from what I watched of other people playing—yes Deathshead does qualify.

Let's see what he does:

He experiments on people to create Super Soldiers and forces BJ to make a Sadistic Choice to offer up one of his allies, either Reid or Probus. He then kills them, first by ripping out their eyes and then keeping their brains in a jar for 12 years. We see the outcome of this at the end of the game when he puts the brain of your ally into a robot and forces it to fight you ending with them being mercy killed. And we see flashbacks of this so Offscreen Villainy dosent work. Furthermore, he constantly sends his underlings to raid, during the timeskip, the Asylum where BJ is kept in to round up mentally handicapped either to send to the death camps or for his own experimentation, and we see this too so it isnt only a passing mention. He enjoys committing all of this and has no remorse.

The only person who might meet or suppress his level of heinousness is Frau Engel, because she has a personal sex slave and runs a concentration camp complete with ovens for burning her victims alive and is shown to enjoy what she does, and worse she's a Karma Houdini. However she does have one redeemable quality—she does appear to have genuine affection for her sex slave and is distraught when you kill said slave. So shes arguably a 99% monster. Therefore it should be debated wheather this is the same case as someone like Amon Goeth from Schindlers List or Volgin from MGS 3(where it was all an act)

So yes, I was right, Deathshead was a [tup].

Also have anyone approved my edits for Palpatine and Tarkin for Star Wars a while back(back on page 1001)?

edited 25th May '14 11:53:25 AM by xie323

TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#25717: May 25th 2014 at 11:51:58 AM

I agree with Lighty. I think we should just finish the Lit sandbox, request to swap it, and then focus on fixing subpages and discussing entries.

edited 25th May '14 1:12:15 PM by TVRulezAgain

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#25718: May 25th 2014 at 11:55:24 AM

So, with the release of the new Godzilla movie, I've been revisiting a lot of my stuff that's related to the franchise, and I've found a few possible contenders, in both IDW's comic book series' and several novel series from when I was a kid. Today I'd like to talk about Dr. Deverich from Half-Century War, but before I do that, a little background.

Since 2010, IDW publishing has had the rights to Godzilla. They've released several comic book series, some of which are in continuity with one another and some of which are not. They are as follows:

Kingdom of Monsters: Awful political "satire" dressed up as a Godzilla story, with a thoroughly annoying Marty Stu as the main character (a guy who proves he is "above politics" by saying that homophobes and gay-rights activists both have good points). No contenders here; everyone is an imbecile.

Godzilla: Set in the same world as Kingdom of Monsters; less "satire", more "we can't trust the government" paranoia. Again, no contenders, everybody is an idiot.

Rulers of Earth: The current run, supposedly set in the same universe as the previous two, but you'd never know it. It retcons out most of the idiocy, turns all the political strawmen into actual characters, and the Marty Stu into a likeable guy. No contenders yet, but we'll want to keep an eye on both the leader of the alien invaders, and a few of the monsters (particularly Gigan).

Gangsters & Goliaths: Alternate continuity, dealing with a detective trying to enlist Mothra's aid against a gang boss. Has a possible contender I'll mention later.

Half-Century War: Another alternate continuity, following a soldier named Ota who develops an Ahab-style obsession with Godzilla. Probably the best of the lot, and the one I want to talk about in this post, because it's villain, Dr. Deverich, is one hell of a bastard.

Who is Dr. Deverich? What has he done?

Deverich is a former member of the Anti-Megalosaur Force (AMF), the group that was formed to battle Godzilla. He was hired to create a psionic device that would drive the big lizard away from inhabited areas. When it didn't work, Deverich abandoned the AMF, created a device that attracted monsters, and began hawking it on the black market. His crimes include:

  • Using one of his psionic devices to attract Godzilla and Anguirus to Vietnam, leading to the obliteration of Hanoi, the near destruction of Saigon, and the deaths of countless American and Vietnamese military personnel. We don't actually see Deverich here, but the presence of one of his psionic devices and the fact that he later claims credit for it, makes it onscreen enough for me. This was, for the record, a test run.
  • Setting up another device in the Ghanan city of Accra, and using it to call every monster on the planet—Godzilla, Rodan, Mothra, Anguirus, Kumonga, Megalon, Battra, Ebirah, and Hedorah—to the city, as part of his sales pitch to various terrorist cells and Third World clients. Accra is wiped off the map, and the AMF is gutted as they try to fend the monsters off.
  • Selling a perfected version of his device (he brags about it being the "jewel in his crown") to a terror cell that uses it to attack Bombay. This calls in not only Godzilla, but SpaceGodzilla, and the AMF's Mechagodzilla, and sees Bombay annihilated in the ensuing three way conflict.
  • Accidentally calls Gigan and King Ghidorah to Earth, leading to the near extinction of the human race, and forcing Ota to make a Heroic Sacrifice to save us all.

Are his actions heinous by the standards of the story?

In a word, yes. This story takes place in its own continuity, so there's really nobody to compare Deverich too. While the terrorists who buy his merchandise might be bad guys, they are responsible, for at most, one attack, while Deverich was involved in three that we see, and god knows what else offscreen. More to the point, at least they have goals. Deverich is Only in It for the Money, and is willing to kill millions of people to that end.

Take Deverich out of the picture and Hanoi, Accra, and Bombay would still exist, and that's without getting into the obliteration of half the planet that occurs once Ghidorah and Gigan land. Nobody—not even Godzilla—can match Deverich for sheer bodycount.

Any redeeming qualities?

None. He's an arrogant bastard who is in it for the cash. No good traits are ever shown.

Freudian Excuse or other mitigating factors?

When the AMF finally captures him in Bombay, Deverich suggests that he wants out of the business, but his clients won't let him. The same conversation also has him bragging about how great his new psionic device is, and how brilliant he is, etc, etc, so to say he's doing this against his will would be a colossal stretch. Deverich might want to become a Retired Monster, but he's certainly not adverse to killing a few million more people along the way.

There's also a case to be made, I suppose, that we can't count what Gigan and Ghidorah did because Deverich didn't actually plan to summon them, but I call BS on that. Deverich was trying to kill millions of people when he set up that transmitter in Bombay. That it ended up being even more powerful than he anticipated, and summoned beings that killed billions instead is not, in my opinion, a mark against him. It's like launching a nuclear weapon with the intent of destroying one city, but instead setting off WWIII when everyone else responds in kind. It's a result you should have seen coming. Not to mention that Deverich clearly isn't sorry about any of it. He views the summoning of SpaceGodzilla as proof of his brilliance, and while we don't see his reaction to Gigan and Ghidorah, nothing in his characterization suggest he'd be saddened by it.

Final thoughts?

Deverich killed billions of people for personal gain. Even if we did discount the summoning of Gigan and Ghidorah he would have a bodycount in the millions, and I see no reason to discount them. He's the worst human being in the franchise, and would qualify even if this wasn't a separate continuity.

Thoughts?

edited 25th May '14 12:19:48 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#25720: May 25th 2014 at 12:38:21 PM

Indeed. Deathshead has other crimes from the past Wolfenstein games so he's an easy, EASY keep.

And yea to Deverich.

OccasionalExister Since: Jul, 2012
#25721: May 25th 2014 at 12:39:53 PM

Deathshead sounds like he counts and so does Dr. Deverich.

Camberf Since: Jan, 2012
TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#25723: May 25th 2014 at 1:11:56 PM

@25719: Done. If no one objects, I'll request the swap.

TheOverlord Since: Jan, 2015
#25724: May 25th 2014 at 1:24:03 PM

I will say [tup] to Dr. Deverich

Also the first season of Avengers Assemble just ended, it seems like the version of Red Skull that appeared in that show may count, I will do a write up for him.

Who is The Red Skull? What has he done?

Well we should all be familiar with Red Skull at this point. Red Skull is the Big Bad of Avengers Assemble and leader of The Cabal, a group of super villains he formed to combat the Avengers and help him Take Over the World.

Red Skull did a lot of typical villain things, tried to switch minds with Captain America, tried to kill Dr. Doom for not joining the Cabal, gathering members for his team, trying to kill the Avengers etc.

But he has committed several crimes that go beyond normal villainy, he tried to blow up the reactor in the Avengers Mansion, which would have caused a large explosion in NYC, both to kill the Avengers and spite the Avengers by killing several civilians in the process. He also fired missiles at two different American cities, so the Avengers would be too busy to stop him from stealing the cosmic cube and doubted the Avengers could stop both missiles. Once he got the cosmic cube, he planned on murdering all of his allies and their mooks, so he could rule the world by himself, the Skull used the cube to create portals to other worlds for his allies to conquer, but those portals were really death traps designed to kill anyone who enters them.

The Skull was later able to incorporate the power of the cosmic cube into himself and used this power to launch attacks on several cities across the world, having legions of robots attack these cities. Red Skull also stated he wanted to burn down the old world, to create a better one.

Are his actions heinous by the standards of the story?

I would say so, as leader of the Cabal, he is the one who directs their actions, making him responsible for the group's actions and he is the one who seems to enact the most murderous schemes out of any villain in the series and even with the Cabal, he seemed intent on devastating the world with the cosmic cube.

Any redeeming qualities?

None, he is just a power mad megalomaniac. The fact that he was willing to murder his allies so he wouldn't have share power, proves he loves no one but himself.

Freudian Excuse or other mitigating factors?

He has no Freudian Excuse for his actions.

The only mitigating factors I think if was With Great Power Comes Great Insanity he seemed to be experiencing after abusing the power of the cosmic cube, but he was really evil before getting his hands on the cosmic cube, it seemed to make more Ax-Crazy and increased his megalomania, not take away his moral agency.

Final Thoughs?

I think he counts, the only thing I have questions about is can we add now or should we wait longer? The first season of the show is done, but the show is still ongoing. After the the last episode Red Skull and the cosmic cube were sucked into another dimension and the Skull is last shown kneeling before Thanos who has the cosmic cube in his hand. I doubt the Skull is kneeling before Thanos out of loyalty or respect (considering how he was willing to betray his allies), more likely out of fear or the chance to be rewarded or even just the chance to go home.

edited 25th May '14 1:27:39 PM by TheOverlord

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#25725: May 25th 2014 at 1:29:37 PM

[up][up][tup] Just two small problems/issues with Tortall: Who was the other Serial Killer besides Crookshank and why doesn't he count? Also, for Pearl, this was on her character page: "Even Evil Has Standards: Pearl is cruel and self-centered, but can't stand people who mistreat animals."
[up]Skull seems to count. Trying to blow up the reactor not just to kill The Avengers (standard villain behavior), but also to kill innocents? Yeah, I say [tup]. Plus there's the Bad Boss stuff.

edited 25th May '14 1:34:15 PM by ACW


Total posts: 326,048
Top