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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#256951: Apr 21st 2021 at 7:15:01 AM

That's two different things. You're talking about the books; I was asking about the show.

WatTambor Since: Oct, 2020
#256952: Apr 21st 2021 at 7:15:59 AM

Yeah, I thought he was talking about the books. My mistake.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#256953: Apr 21st 2021 at 7:31:34 AM

Cut the plagiarized shit, use Wat's crimes but condense on Gregor... he shouldn't be part of the ">300 club", find his worst crimes, list them and don't make it a plot summary.

Also one thing that jumped at me... we've got the How to page for MB because that trope has a thousand parts with balances involved to make sure the character neither winds up coming across as a Smug Snake or a Villain Sue. Complete Monster is... make them bad enough to stand out and subvert their mitigating factors: I don't think a massive page detailing how many different types an author can make or delving into each subset of mitigating factors or potential heinous deeds to wax lyrical about what the coolest way to write them is necessary.

Just look at the How to Be a Complete Monster Just for fun page and it pretty well shows the core components are pretty straightforward. This just doesn't seem like a project worth pouring effort into, like the quotes morgue we once had suggested.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#256954: Apr 21st 2021 at 7:41:06 AM

I mean it doesn’t have to be huge, but as a writer, there are actually quite a few ways to spin a CM in terms of making them stand out, subverting redeeming qualities, etc. It’s certainly not as complicated as MB and the page would never get anywhere near as long, but there’s a lot of ways to mess with this that you wouldn’t see on first glance, and the page is fun to maintain and read, so I don’t think it’s a huge issue.

LargoQuagmire Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#256956: Apr 21st 2021 at 7:48:11 AM

Eh if you like it I'm fine with it then Star. What really jumped at me was I seem to recall someone mentioning a greats and treat with caution section like MB... that I really don't think is necessary.

Edited by 43110 on Apr 21st 2021 at 10:50:45 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#256957: Apr 21st 2021 at 7:52:50 AM

Can we remove that section.

This has far less components that mb where each entry is supposed to represent a component of an mb.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#256958: Apr 21st 2021 at 7:57:28 AM

The section is there - the treat with caution is empty, and the greats has Light, Freiza, and and Kefko - but I’m not attached to it, so it can go

The only reason I think at least keeping a treat with caution might be worth it is because Unintentionally Sympathetic and Unintentionally Unsympathetic are a thing but I can’t think of any monster iconic enough with either of those titles

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Apr 21st 2021 at 10:59:46 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#256959: Apr 21st 2021 at 7:59:09 AM

Good idea. We’ve had issues with tropers who write trying to generate “complex” monsters and I fear it’ll bring us back to badge of honour mentality.

[up] I really can’t support keeping either.

Edited by 43110 on Apr 21st 2021 at 10:59:30 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#256960: Apr 21st 2021 at 8:00:36 AM

Yeah. Yeah.....

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#256961: Apr 21st 2021 at 8:01:37 AM

I've cut the plagiarized entries (and the Sandboxes on which they appeared; that was fun tongue).

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#256962: Apr 21st 2021 at 8:03:48 AM

Here's my thing: how often have we had people fly off the handle because their favourite monster developed redeeming qualities or whine that someone wound up being a cookie-cutter villain when a troper personally felt they could have been taken in a much more complex direction. I really don't want a place to essentially categorize a litany of things people have taken umbrage with over the years because I don't see it ultimately doing anything but causing problems. There was once a post that listed monsters who subverted their Freudian Excuses and it had to be diced for likewise causing more arguments than bringing in interest for the direct merits of the list.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#256963: Apr 21st 2021 at 8:06:00 AM

Understandable, cutting that section on the grounds of being a gushing/complaining magnet

ASghhrv6ub Best Smile from Second star to the right. Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Best Smile
#256964: Apr 21st 2021 at 8:09:00 AM

[tup]Cypher, Pwani, SoIaF rewrites

[tdown]Not Them

Cut plagied condidates and the greats and treat with caution sections.

Welcome back Polar, altough I am in the same situation with Robert.

I am the one, I am the one, the godlike terror train, superior artificial brain, feel free to call me Blaine
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#256965: Apr 21st 2021 at 8:11:25 AM

If we are trimming Book!Gregor, how does this look ?

  • Ser Gregor Clegane, "the Mountain that Rides", is a sadist in serving House Lannister and one of the most feared men in Westeros. As a man, he's rumored to have murdered his sister, father, and two wives, when he was a child twelve, he burned half of his younger brother Sandor's face when the latter played with one his toys. At seventeen, he dashed the infant Prince Aegon's head against a wall, then raped and murdered his mother, Princess Elia. While at at a tournament, Gregor murders one of his opponents, then tries to kill another and Sandor after losing a joust. Unleashed on the Riverlands, Clegane and his men rape and murder anyone who falls into their hands. At one point, for ten days, Gregor picks one person each day from a group of villagers to torture for information. After one villager volunteers to save her daughter, Clegane has the daughter tortured the next day to make sure the mother didn't leave anything out. He tortures Vargo Hoat, including cutting cuts strips of flesh from Hoat and feeding them to Hoat, before letting him die. He also has a girl gang raped for speaking when he wanted silence. In the same book, during a duel with Oberyn Martell, Princess Elia's brother, who asserts his the murder of his sister and her children to him, Clegane's only concern is that Oberyn got the order of events wrong, correcting him before brutally crushing Oberyn's skull.

Edited by Beast on Apr 21st 2021 at 8:16:32 AM

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#256966: Apr 21st 2021 at 8:12:19 AM

I got another quote for Azog the Defiler.

"My people were the first to live in the mountains, before the orcs came down from the North. The Defiler killed most of my family. But some he enslaved. Not for work, you understand, but for sport. Caging skin-changers and torturing them seemed to amuse him. Once there were many... now there is only one."
Beorn describing Azog the Defiler's crimes against his people, The Hobbit: The Desolation of Smaug

Edited by k410ren on Apr 21st 2021 at 11:14:03 AM

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#256967: Apr 21st 2021 at 8:12:23 AM

He killed his wives when he was 12?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#256968: Apr 21st 2021 at 8:15:56 AM

No, it's saying "while as a man he's known for possibly killing his wives, when he was twelve he also..."

I get the confusion though, that one does read just a bit oddly.

I like the Azog quote

Edited by STARCRUSHER99 on Apr 21st 2021 at 11:16:18 AM

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#256969: Apr 21st 2021 at 8:16:01 AM

[up][up]I miss typed. I'll fix it now.

  • Ser Gregor Clegane, "the Mountain that Rides", is a sadist in serving House Lannister and one of the most feared men in Westeros. As a man, he's rumored to have murdered his sister, father, and two wives. When he was twelve, he burned half of his younger brother Sandor's face when the latter played with one his toys. At seventeen, he dashed the infant Prince Aegon's head against a wall, then raped and murdered his mother, Princess Elia. While at at a tournament, Gregor murders one of his opponents, then tries to kill another and Sandor after losing a joust. Unleashed on the Riverlands, Clegane and his men rape and murder anyone who falls into their hands. At one point, for ten days, Gregor picks one person each day from a group of villagers to torture for information. After one villager volunteers to save her daughter, Clegane has the daughter tortured the next day to make sure the mother didn't leave anything out. He tortures Vargo Hoat, including cutting cuts strips of flesh from Hoat and feeding them to Hoat, before letting him die. He also has a girl gang raped for speaking when he wanted silence. During a duel with Oberyn Martell, Princess Elia's brother, who asserts his the murder of his sister and her children to him, Clegane's only concern is that Oberyn got the order of events wrong, correcting him before brutally crushing Oberyn's skull.

[down] Fixed.

Edited by Beast on Apr 21st 2021 at 8:25:00 AM

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#256970: Apr 21st 2021 at 8:23:08 AM

My only suggestion would be to get rid of the "During the same book" but otherwise I love it Beast!

LargoQuagmire Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#256971: Apr 21st 2021 at 8:27:18 AM

[tup] rewrite for Mountain and Azog quote

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#256972: Apr 21st 2021 at 8:37:42 AM

Also [tup] Cypher.

That was a lot to catch up on.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#256973: Apr 21st 2021 at 8:44:20 AM

Cut the two guys till a more honest person comes our way

DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
#256974: Apr 21st 2021 at 8:59:58 AM

[tup] to the Rorge rewrite, Gregor Clegane rewrite, and the Azog quote.

Cut Zaboera and Kaburagi Kark.

@PolarPhantom: Welcome back.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#256975: Apr 21st 2021 at 9:00:00 AM

Welcome back Polar!

The plagiarism thing has me a bit concerned about when I did Antoine Sartain back in September 2017. When I wrote the section about Who/What, I took my character description I wrote on Villains Wiki, added details to it and then used that. Should I do the EP over because of that or is it not the same thing?

I was the one who created the character page and again, I was the one who wrote the description that I myself used, so that’s the down low.

EP here, description here.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Apr 21st 2021 at 9:11:17 AM


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