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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#256851: Apr 20th 2021 at 3:16:35 PM

Yes to Pwami

[up]I feel like it was discussed in the EP

Edited by VeryVileVillian on Apr 20th 2021 at 1:17:06 PM

Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#256852: Apr 20th 2021 at 3:16:57 PM

Yes to Pwani (finally another keep who ISN'T Ming the merciless).

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#256853: Apr 20th 2021 at 3:21:40 PM

[up][up] I checked the mitigating factors section, and all I saw was "Dahak cares nothing for his child"...

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#256855: Apr 20th 2021 at 3:26:26 PM

From the EP:

"Hope grows up quick, lured into further darkness by her monstrous father who has Hope breed a monster called the Destroyer, intending on using her to sow the world with a seed of monsters to wipe out most mankind and allow for Dahak's arrival. This is prevented when Hope and the Destroyer are killed."

Find a specific reference indicating he genuinely cares for her beyond a tool in his plans for me to reconsider him.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#256856: Apr 20th 2021 at 3:29:56 PM

Ah, so the use on the character page is a misuse.

I feel like only caring about someone as a tool should be a trope... Pragmatic Villainy doesn't seem right.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#256857: Apr 20th 2021 at 3:31:00 PM

Btw for the quote I found this by ares describing dahak.

"The one great evil is here. It's part of that creature that was with her. Oh, we've sensed him. Everyone on Olympus has. This... this force of darkness spells the end of all of us—gods and man alike.""

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
TiMBer1566 kittykat from Virginia Since: Nov, 2018 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
kittykat
#256858: Apr 20th 2021 at 3:46:18 PM

Can we trim this entry? It seems a little long for someone who, if my memory serves me correctly, only appeared for three episodes. Hell, his entry is even longer than Joffrey's and Ramsay's.

Edited by TiMBer1566 on Apr 20th 2021 at 3:46:37 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#256859: Apr 20th 2021 at 3:46:32 PM

[up][up]That could make a good page quote. What's the ep?

[up]Hmm, yeah, we don't need a longer writeup than those 2.

EDIT: Here's potholed Dahak. I don't think Iolaus died?

  • Dahak, lord of chaos and evil, is a god who predates even the Titans themselves. Seeking to plunge the world into chaos to destroy most of humanity, Dahak is responsible for sowing evil through his cults and countless murders and cruelties. When the prophet Zarathustra refused to murder his family, Dahak killed them and cursed Zarathustra with immortality to never forget. Dahak rapes Xena's companion Gabrielle to beget the child Hope so he may use her to spawn a race of monsters to wipe out humanity and allow Dahak's coming upon earth. Dahak corrupts the former hero Gilgamesh to destroy the world, before trying to trick Hercules into damning his companion Iolaus's soul while preparing to arrive upon Earth and enact his schemes of eternal chaos.

Edited by ACW on Apr 20th 2021 at 6:55:54 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#256860: Apr 20th 2021 at 3:54:08 PM

It's from Armageddon now from Hercules.

Btw God of Chaos is also a thing if you want to use it as well.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#256861: Apr 20th 2021 at 3:56:14 PM

Let's use both and de-pothole cults.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#256862: Apr 20th 2021 at 4:07:17 PM

I am always happy to see an ax taken to the GoT entries... I think many are ridiculously long and I've never been given a great reason as to why some like the Mountain need to spill over 300. All power to you Timber.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#256863: Apr 20th 2021 at 4:09:23 PM

Gregor is 300. Really he isn't even a Big Bad or major villain type.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#256864: Apr 20th 2021 at 4:10:25 PM

Just like I did with some of the Marvel lit entries, I'd trim if I knew the source material...hell, I may try anyway, just like I did with some of the Marvel lit entries [lol]

[up] Isn't Gregor a pretty big villain, if not Ramsay level?

Edited by ACW on Apr 20th 2021 at 7:11:10 AM

TiMBer1566 kittykat from Virginia Since: Nov, 2018 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
kittykat
#256865: Apr 20th 2021 at 4:13:34 PM

Let's see...

  • Karl Tanner takes the taboo of oathbreaking to extreme measures by instigating a mutiny Craster's Keep which claims the lives of Lord Commander Mormont and all of his loyalists. After taking over at Craster's Keep, Karl rules with an iron fist, drinks wine from the skull of the very commander he betrayed, relishes his past as a Psycho for Hire and pressures his men to rape and brutalize Craster's wives/daughters, who are too terrified of Karl's violent outbursts to oppose him. When one of Craster's wives steps in with the last born baby boy, Karl's first reaction is to attempt to kill it for not wanting any more mouths to feed. He's only stopped when the wives point out that they leave them as a sacrifice for the White Walkers, so he has that done instead. Once his men captures Bran and his group, Karl abuses Bran and menaces Meera in order to get him to speak, later attempting to gang-rape Meera with his men while forcing his brother to watch. When encountered by Jon, Karl shows nothing but pride for his treachery and relishes the time he and his men had as free men, despite mocking Craster for the same lifestyle a while back.

Edited by TiMBer1566 on Apr 20th 2021 at 4:18:44 AM

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#256866: Apr 20th 2021 at 4:13:51 PM

[up] [up] Nah, Gregor is only The Dragon to the Lannister's while Ramsay at least is The Heavy of the Northern arc. Gregor isn't in the same prominence character or story wise as Ramsay.

Edited by Beast on Apr 20th 2021 at 4:14:19 AM

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#256867: Apr 20th 2021 at 4:14:51 PM

[up]Yeah he's just a thug that the other major villains use.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#256868: Apr 20th 2021 at 4:17:47 PM

Please add the Karl rewrite to the Drafts.

Any others worth trimming?

Edited by ACW on Apr 20th 2021 at 7:26:21 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#256869: Apr 20th 2021 at 4:31:59 PM

Hope is a tool for Dahak, little else. And Iolaus does die. It's a big thing in S5

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#256870: Apr 20th 2021 at 4:48:22 PM

And came back to life as the fans willed it.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#256872: Apr 20th 2021 at 5:22:41 PM

[tup] Pwami.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#256873: Apr 20th 2021 at 5:56:36 PM

I have another entry that could really use a trim.

  • Son of Batman & Teen Titans: The Judas Contract: Slade Wilson, aka Deathstroke the Terminator, is a contract killer who'd shown promise to be Ra's al Ghul's successor as leader of the League of Assassins. Ra's ended up choosing Bruce Wayne as his heir instead, making Slade turn on Ra's due to this rejection and slaughter many of the group's assassins in his hostile takeover. He manipulated and abused Bruce's son Damian Wayne in order to keep him in line; conducted Lazarus Pit experiments to create flying Man-Bat assassins which he'd planned on selling off as slave mercenaries; tortured Damian's mother Talia al Ghul and made Damian watch; and attempted to kill the Bat-Family, Damian included. He is later saved from death and serves Brother Blood as part of a contract to take out the Teen Titans and deliver them to Blood in order to have the young teens drained of their life force, granting Blood their powers. To carry this out, Slade sends Terra Markov, a teenage girl he's raised and groomed to follow in his footsteps, to infiltrate the Titans as The Mole and ultimately betray them over to his side. Damian Wayne gets betrayed and captured ahead of schedule, so Slade wastes no opportunity to beat the crap out of him and attempt to break him as vengeance for costing him the League of Assassins. Slade's made Terra so dependent on him after having saved her life that she's developed a romantic attraction to him, a much older man, and uses this by promising her they can be together once the job is completed. But when he's seemingly killed Nightwing and is told by Brother Blood that he needs a Titan in Nightwing's place to complete the contract and be paid at full price, Slade has zero problem turning Terra over to have her life and power drained, coldly telling her "Sorry kid, but a contract is a contract."

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#256874: Apr 20th 2021 at 8:26:58 PM

That's... damn. Here:

  • Slade Wilson, aka Deathstroke the Terminator, is a contract killer who slaughtered many League of Assassin members when Ra's Al-Ghul selected Bruce Wayne as his successor instead of Slade. Taking Bruce's son Damian to keep him in line, Slade torments Damian by making him watch his mother be tortured and later tries to kill Bruce's whole Bat-Family. Saved by Brother Blood and recruited to bring him the Teen Titans to drain their life force for Blood to empower himself, Slade sends Terra Markov—a teen whom he raised as his lover and pet assassin—to infiltrate and betray the Titans and when Slade's contract requires a Titan sacrifice to replace a lost one, happily tries putting Terra to a painful death.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#256875: Apr 20th 2021 at 8:27:12 PM

Old proposal of mine...could be shortened, possibly.

One I want to relitigate now, too...

What's the work?

In 1999, Keanu Reeves knew Kung Fu. And the world was never the same again. Mr. Anderson lives a double life as hacker NEO, who is found by a mysterious man named Morpheus...who shows him the world is just a simulation. The world itself has been all but annihilated, machines reign supreme and grow human beings with the last free city being Zion...joining Morpheus's crew, Neo learns he has destiny ahead: he is The One, the one prophesied and destined to destroy the machines and lead humanity to victory...and his nemesis is the Agent, Smith, a program to defend the Matrix who forms in opposition to Neo...

But Smith has serious agency issues, so we'll be discussing the treacherous...Cypher.

Who is Cypher?

A weaselly little member of Morpheus's crew, Cypher has grown bitter of the rebellion and weary of being on the run from the machines. After having taken the "Red Pill," offered by Morpheus to awaken someone from the Matrix, Cypher grows sick and tired of serving...nine years later and Cypher decides that ignorance is bliss.

Going behind the backs of the crew, Cypher reaches out to Agent Smith, deciding he prefers the illusory comforts of the Matrix. Cypher wishes to return to the Matrix and requests that his memory be erased and he be someone important. Smith is ready to play ball but Cypher needs to provide the codes to Zion's mainframe....which Cypher doesn't have. Only Morpheus does...

Upon a mission in the Matrix, Cypher allows for the Agents to track the group. One of the team, Mouse, is gunned down by the trap Cypher sets...Cypher sets up Morpheus to be captured and tortured so the Agents can extract Zion's security from him...leading to the final genocide of free humankind.

Cypher himself escapes the Matrix...and promptly turns on the other members of the crew, brothers Tank and Dozer, frying both with a lightning rifle.....he then contacts the others in the Matrix and reveals a truly sadistic side, unplugging them unsafely, first executing teammate Apoc, then tells Trinity, Morpheus's second and Neo's love interest that if she has "anything terribly important to say to Switch, I suggest you say it now" before unplugging her. While mocking Trinity about it, he sets to Neo next, saying if Neo is the one...well, something is gonna happen to keep him from killing him, right?

Trinity, refusing to buckle in, reiterates her faith in Neo....and Tank, having survived, has seized the lightning rifle. Cypher frantically says he doesn't believe it and Tank, not caring what the hell he believes, blasts him through the chest.

Mitigating issues?

Initially, and I went with this then to my error...the issue was heinousness. But you know what? Cypher's relatively low body count is coupled with him facilitating the genocide of humanity for personal comfort. The machines want Zion eradicated. Utterly. It's not ambiguous and Cypher is aware of it. He simply wants to be put back in the Matrix and be famous and important. The only guy who comes close is Smith himself and he's the equivalent of a God in the Matrix. Cypher's one Redpill and that's all.

If that wasn't enough, Cypher's whole motive is just "poor me, I want to be special and comfortable" not caring who dies in the process. Millions of lives are a very small price to pay for that. IF it wasn't enough, Cypher conducts this with nothing short of sadistic relish in how he executes his old team, taking time to taunt and mock them through the whole thing while playing with Trinity with creepy undertones. His Rage Against the Mentor at Morpheus comes off as utterly hollow since Morpheus hasn't lied to or deceived them at all. Cypher just has buyer's remorse over fighting the machines and blames Morpheus for his problems

Conclusion?

Put him up, I say.


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