During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Here's a quick one...so I've been listening to a number of horror podcasts and before Dahak from Xena, I've definitely got a bit to say on series like Old Gods of Appalachia...but first?
So, I was rewatching the Wire and honestly...I think a very minor character might make it. I give you Sam Choksey, AKA "Sailor Sam"
Who is Sam Choksey?
A Turksh ship crewman, who commands the cargo vessel the Atlantic Light. Sam is a human trafficker working with the gang known as the Greeks who helps to smuggle in the girls. Sam came up with a bright idea to make a bit of money while transporting 14 prostitutes across the Atlantic: pimp them out to his men and make some extra cash. When the girls were allowed some fresh air, Sam saw the sailors looking at them...and to make a little extra money, began to sell the girls....unfortunately, as he puts it? "One of the Putana decides she don't want to be a Putana no more." The sailor got rough with her...it's ambiguous if Sam himself or the sailor killed her (Sam claims the sailor did) but...this is strongly inicated to be him lying, but the girls was dead.
Panicking at what the Greeks would do if a girl died, Sam decides to seal them in the container, nail it shut and let them suffocate in the darkness. When the ship arrives...well, the cops soon become aware of the girls' corpses and it sets them on the case of the trafficking operation. Sam's attempts to run come to very little and he is beaten and abducted by the Greeks, the Greek himself (the kingpin of the organization whose true name is unknown. But he isn't actually Greek)...and tells him he gets to live if he answers some questions.
Of course the Greek isn't being serious on this. After learning the story, Spiros Vondas, the Greek's right hand man, slits Sam's throat brually and the Greeks remove his head, hands and feet when the corpse is discovered.
Any mitigating issues?
The Wire is...a brutal story. Drugs proliferate the streets, gangs kill people, even a number of otherwise complex or sympathetic villains have deplorable traits....Wee-Bey Bryce is a top hitman for the Barksdale organization and rapes a drunken stripper at one point (Does NOT count, doesn't even come cose, don't ask)...Marlo Stanfield is the most evil of the Baltimore Kingpins and is already listed...the Greek is probably the most evil guy in the show with the human trafficking but his friendship with Spiros seems too genuine.
Sam is a low-rent human smuggler who, in a moment of cowardice, commits one of, if not the single worst act of mass murder in the show. Now, one could argue he was just scared but frankly, the scumbag was pimping the girls out to the crew on his own without any care for them until one girl resisted and died, likely at his hand...is solution is to condemn the others to die via suffocation, all to cover his own ass.
Conclusion?
You decide. I lean yes.
Edited by Lightysnake on Apr 17th 2021 at 6:54:53 AM
Oh the Greek wasn't lying! He said once I'm finished questioning you, you're done.
After talking it over with you, I think I'm gonna give a ![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Thumbs_up_emoticon_3268.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
. I do think he was scared, but I don't think that mitigates what he did by a long shot.
Ultimate Moral Compass
Ah, The Wire. Yet another show in my pile of series I need to eventually watch.
Sailor Sam
A total has-been.
"Sailor Sam". Fairly minor, but just nasty enough with what he did and what he had to work with.
Anti-Monitor as well.
On Agatha, I'll have to go look at her battle with Blue and Koga again to see if there's anything explicit. But at no other point in the arc do I recall her showing care for any Pokemon, as her stance seemed to be "Pokemon exist to be made strong by strong trainers", hence her disagreement with Oak pursuing researching them for the Poke'dex instead.
Edited by ANewMan on Apr 17th 2021 at 7:04:55 AM
Honestly? If the poor girl had tripped and banged her head, maybe panic would be mitigating. Since Sam was pimping them out to the sailors to skim a bit off the top and very likely murdered the girl who resisted (all he can do is say it was "someone else" when the Greek presses him), well...
The wifi here sucks
Yes to the Anti-Monitor and Sam
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
The Draftsman of Doom
Sure to Sam.
Rawr.
Honestly? I'm gonna say yes to Agatha. I think her baby names toward her Pokémon are part of her Faux Affably Evil grandmas shtick more than actual, genuine care for her Pokémon.
If memory serves, the other members of the E4 (or Lance, at any rate) get opportunities to show that their Kill All Humans mentality is countered by a very sympathetic view toward Pokémon, since they're not planning on killing any Pokémon. Agatha never gets an individual moment like that to get in on those Well-Intentioned Extremist vibes, and if they really wanted to show affection for Pokémon was universal among the E4, they would have given Agatha one of those bits. As is, she's literally just a misanthrope with a chip on her shoulder thanks to a petty decades-old grudge.
Speaking of, if she goes up? I love this picture of her and I've verified it's not fan-art. I think I like it more than the image we already have on Pokémon.
Edited by Scraggle on Apr 17th 2021 at 8:25:39 AM
The wifi here sucks
Thinking it over and with Scragg's argument I give Agatha a weak yes especially since the two examples given ("cute" and "dear") aren't too affectionate on their own
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
A total has-been.
OK, so I looked through the volumes again and could not find any point where Agatha showed that she cared for her Pokemon as anything other than her own personal fighting machines. Scraggle's remark that "she's literally just a misanthrope with a chip on her shoulder thanks to a petty decades-old grudge" is made particularly clear in the scene where we do get her POV flashback, which was kicked off by Agatha getting up and declaring "Nothing stands in the way of Agatha! I will never suffer that again! Not after that time!" Her stated driving ethos is entirely about herself, not about Pokemon and protecting them from humanity like Lorelei, Bruno and Lance genuinely espoused for what was driving their actions.
The actual hazy area of a possibly mitigating factor would be she openly has a great deal of fondness and respect for Professor Oak and his grandson Blue...but she also explicitly wants them dead. She internally tells Oak "You've been my greatest inspiration, and you can carve that on your tombstone!" And the line about sending Blue to Heaven to join him in the official translation? In the unofficial scanlation, it's "As for your grandson and his friend there? They can rot along with you there in Hell!" So I'm not sure it's mitigating. I mean, we have Jim Moriarty on this trope and we all know how he got with Sherlock...
I think it's also telling that we see Bruno (who was always the Token Good Teammate of the Elite Four) have his Heel–Face Turn in the Gold/Silver/Crystal Chapter, we see Lorelei has reformed as of the Fire Red/Leaf Green Chapter, and Lance is one of the heroes in the Heart Gold/Soul Silver Chapter (and previously a nominal hero as Silver's mentor in the Gold/Silver/Crystal Chapter too). But Agatha? Nothing in either the Yellow Chapter or any later arc.
Edited by ANewMan on Apr 17th 2021 at 7:45:30 AM
The Moron
With that elaboration, yes to Agatha
to Sam Choksey/Sailor Sam.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
That doesn't sound mitigating and with elaboration, to Agatha. Thank you for the clarification.
Unfortunately, I'm not too big on the image myself. It's a bit too ambiguous on what she's doing from the cover alone for my taste.
Edited by DrUnknown on Apr 17th 2021 at 7:47:05 AM
Agatha (someone else can do an "Agatha All Along" parody)
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Sam and Agatha.
Showtime!
to sam and agatha
The wifi here sucks
I also support the image either for the image page or the actual pokemon page.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon
Professor Gigachad
Considering with have Kodai as both the image and quote it would be nice to have something different so yeah I would support that.
Edited by Ordeaux26 on Apr 17th 2021 at 8:15:36 AM
CM Sandboxes, MB Sandboxes
to Agatha image
Lizzid people!
Don't really care much for the image suggestion myself; but yes to Sam and Agatha.
Karl, Brainiac, Agatha, Anti-Monitor and Sam
The Moron
Also, forgot to say yes to Sam - sounds like Ken the demon where he appears for so little but has a huge crime to make up for it
to Agatha, Anti-Monitor and Sam.
Sure to Agatha and yes to Sam.
@Wingedcatgirl no edits need to go through here, those edits should be changed back.
Hope your prepared for an unforgettable luncheon