During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
@ACW Now that you mentioned, the current write up doesn't really explain more of Tsuneo's more heinous crimes. Here's is the current write up:
- Complete Monster: Tsuneo Iwami is the son of Yomei Alliance chairman Heizo Iwami and CEO of Iwami Shipbuilding. Resenting his father for keeping him out of the Yakuza lifestyle, Iwami takes his own shot at making it to the top of the criminal underworld. Teaming up with Tojo Clan advisor Katsumi Sugai, Iwami is responsible for all the events that occurred throughout the game, even having his own father murdered. Forcing Takumi Someya to fight Kazuma Kiryu to the death by threatening the man's family, Iwami then gives Kiryu a Sadistic Choice to either kill Someya or let Someya's ex-wife Kiyomi die. Someya commits seppuku to appease Iwami, only for Iwami to order Kiyomi's execution anyway. When finally confronted by Kiryu, Iwami reveals that he has Haruka and her son Haruto taken hostage, threatening to kill them if Kiryu retaliates. When finally at the receiving end of Kiryu's wrath, Iwami tries to save his own skin by ordering Sugai to shoot Haruka. Committing numerous heinous crimes just to prove his father wrong, Tsuneo Iwami is one of the few individuals who truly earned the Dragon of Dojima's hatred.
What do the rest of you guys think?
Yeah, I mean, I get from the writeup that the dude's an asshole, but compared to a guy who started a Mob War and another who was behind a Zombie Apocalypse?
While it does it had the advantage of mentioning his attempts to kill a BABY. It doesn't tell much more than that. I would watch Yakuza 6 cutscenes on You Tube or play the game again and try to make a rewrite, but due to being focus on playing through the rest of the series, I don't think I’ll be able to, so if anyone wants to make a rewrite for Iwami, please feel free to do so.
Yeah, DD is no problem for the main series' heinous standard. As for the other two Yakuza potential candidates, I plan to get to them as soon as I finish Yakuza 5, (Already played/know the plot of Yakuza 6) just in case there could be a potential third candidate, but so far I only have two potential candidates from the series.
Alrighty, I'm back with my new EP!
What's the work? - When looking at Pokémon Adventures, it's nigh impossible to find a candidate who comes anywhere close to Ghetsis' level of both completely vile with no mitigating qualities and horribly heinous given their resources and intentions - the Big Bads either fall too far below the heinous standard (Giovanni, Archer, Charon, Faba), are Anti-Villains who have mitigating factors and even get redeemed in the end (Giovanni again, Lance, Pryce, Cyrus, N, Zinnia, Guzma, Lusamine, most likely Chairman Rose and Oleana in the current arc), or totally would qualify for their deeds were it not for some pesky mitigating factors that make them ineligible (this manga's versions of Archie and Maxie, Colress, Lysandre, Malva). The henchman level villains or minor antagonists tend to not be much to write home about either, as they are usually redeemable and even the ones who don't show any sign of reforming don't breach the heinous standard (like, Sird in both Team Rocket and Team Galactic is plenty bad but this manga's heinous standard is so high that her rap sheet comes up lacking).
But then I realized there actually was one character we might've overlooked - one of the earlier arc antagonists who takes Adaptational Villainy to insane levels.
Ladies and gentlemen (song mode on)....It's Been Agatha All Along!
Who is character? What does she do? - Agatha, an elderly woman who specializes in training Ghost type Pokemon, is a member of the Kanto Elite Four and one of the main villains in the Yellow Chapter, second only to the Big Bad Lance himself in prominence. It's made clear later in the arc that Agatha is actually the true brains behind the Elite Four's Kill All Humans plot, with her having been advising Lance that he take drastic measures in order to stop humanity from hurting Pokemon any further and create a paradise where only the worthy elite trainers who truly care for their Pokemon look after all Pokemon. Of course, as we'll get to later, Agatha cares nothing for the Pokemon and is really going through all this trouble to prove a point and settle an old score.
Agatha is first seen in Saffron City taking Team Rocket's badge power amplifier out from the ruins of Silph Co. HQ. A bit later in the arc she hires a young Super Nerd trainer named Miles to steal Red's Pikachu that was currently in the care of the arc's protagonist, Yellow. When Miles is defeated by Yellow, Agatha sends out one of her Ghost Pokemon to silence Miles from spilling any information on the Elite Four's plans by lifting him up into the air and grabbing him in a ghostly strangle-hold, draining the life energy from him. It's explicitly stated by Brock that the boy could die if this kept up, but luckily he gets rescued in time.
Agatha is next seen in when she lures Blue Oak to an abandoned Power Plant and attempts to have her Gengar use Dream Eater to suck away his energy. While Blue is encased in the energy coffin made from the attack, Agatha tells him of her vendetta against Professor Oak and anyone associated with him, Blue included. She says she'd wanted to toy with him a little, but learning that he was Oak's grandson changed her plans 'cause now she just wants to brutally murder him to spite his grandfather. A younger trainer named Ivan is accompanying Blue at this time because Agatha had stolen his Haunter, and just for the misfortune of being there as a tagalong, Agatha attempts to have her Gengar kill him too.
During the climactic battle on Cerise Island, Agatha battles against Blue and Koga, revealing she has an Arbok with the ability to change the pattern on its belly and use different corresponding abilities. She has her Arbok's Rock Slide attack divide Blue and Koga so that her Golbat can then attack Blue while Koga is dealing with the Arbok. While Blue is fighting Golbat, Agatha sends out her Haunter to use Lick on Blue's eyes, causing temporary blindness, which makes it harder for him to fight Agatha's Pokemon and easier for them to torture him and his own Pokemon. Even when Agatha seems to be beaten, a second Arbok of attacks Koga from behind, almost landing a Poison Sting attack on him to kill him but it's stopped by Blue. Agatha doesn't take defeat lying down. After reminiscing about her past with Professor Oak and the drive that motivates her even now, she has her Gengar, which she'd deliberately withheld from the earlier battle, trail Koga and Blue by blending in with their shadows to slowly drain their energy and kill them both without them even realizing it, stating her desire to make Oak suffer first by killing his beloved grandson and then killing him, even mockingly declaring "your grandson will be awaiting you to join him in Heaven!"
Sometime after her Gengar has been found out and defeated, it's revealed that Agatha was the one controlling the Pokemon armies that the Elite Four had been attacking cities with by using special wrist bands that enslave their minds. Agatha had also used the Mind Control powers of her Ghost Pokemon's Hypnosis to control the honorable Elite Four trainer Bruno against his will, making him her slave to battle Red. who ended up getting turned into a frozen statue by Lorelei's Ice Pokemon during the battle. It was also earlier shown that Agatha had recruited Lorelei as a child by healing her Seel when it had been hurt by humans, an incident she used to talk the girl into believing that they have a common distaste of humans and should work together to ensure no humans hurt Pokemon again, and Agatha had also used a similar experience of a young Lance finding a fatally hurt Dratini in a toxic waste dump to egg Lance on into the Kill All Humans mindset as well. Agatha had been responsible for almost all of the Elite Fours' villainy, and infuriatingly, she suffers no repercussions because she's already vanished without a trace, a Karma Houdini in the manga to this very day.
Freudian Excuse or Mitigating Factors? - OK, this is Agatha's given backstory: when she was young, she was close friends with Samuel Oak, Pryce, and the current Daycare Center owners in Johto, so she Used to Be a Sweet Kid, if not a bit aloof and very proud. When they all grew up and became trainers, Oak defeated Agatha in the finals for the Pokemon Championship. Agatha met him after the battle and asked why he'd drifted away from the friends' "research group", and Oak explained that he wanted to create the Pokedex. Thinking that this was a stupid idea that would never be completed, Agatha challenged Oak again in order to prove that the study of Pokemon for fighting and becoming stronger trainers was a more worthwhile pursuit. Oak barely won after a battle that lasted hours, so Agatha swore a personal vendetta against Oak and anyone who associates with him and determined that one day in the future, she would prove right her point that only truly strong, elite trainers and strong Pokemon can determine the future as opposed to a soft approach like befriending Pokemon and recording them for a Pokedex. Yes, that's it. That's all we're given. A petty personal grudge regarding clashing ideology from years ago when she and Oak were young that has jack shit to justify the lengths Agatha went to as a crazy old lady years later, or why she'd come to hate Oak enough to want to kill him and his grandson. I'm reminded a little of Zhan Tiri and Demantius from Tangled: The Series, where the two might have been friends long ago, but the bond broke apart due to the old witch's stubborn refusal to see reason, so only pure hatred remains for her now.
The only potential mitigating factors are that she talks affectionately about her own Ghost Pokemon and she did heal Lorelei's Seel way back when. The affectionate terms ("cute", "dear", etc.) could just be Faux Affably Evil old granny talk since how she actually uses her Pokemon and the way she treats other Pokemon shows her Social Darwinist beliefs color her thinking when it comes to Pokemon, and healing Seel for Lorelei (a child at this time, btw) was shown pretty blatantly to be all part of her method to manipulate Lorelei into agreeing to be apprenticed by her so that she could use her for an Evil Plan later on down the line whenever that time came, so even her sole Pet the Dog action (well, aside from what she and her other friends had tried to do for a grieving Pryce back when they were all still young and innocent and Pryce had lost his Lapras, which ultimately had no effect on the people they all grew up to be except for Pryce himself) is working an angle for her own benefit.
Heinousness? - Considering that the only resources Agatha is working with are her Ghost Pokemon and some nifty inventions at her disposal due to her being a Pokemon League affiliate, it's actually remarkable that she is as awful as she is. She tries to murder children on at least five different occasions (with Ivan being a very young kid and guilty of nothing but being in the wrong place at the wrong time when he tagged along with Blue to the Power Plant), she put her own co-Elite Four member under Mind Control to make him a mindless slave for their mission, she preyed on Lorelei to the point of shaping her to be the cold-hearted person she is (meaning she's indirectly responsible for Lorelei freezing Red solid too), she stirred the pot of Lance's Misanthrope Supreme views in order to goad him towards the Kill All Humans Final Solution, gleefully tried to torture and murder Blue and Koga in some of the absolute most cheap shot moves imaginable, and is fully intent on not only killing her old friend due to a petty grudge, but also making him suffer more before she does so by killing his grandson. Sure, our Dragon type wielding Magnificent Bastard Lance might seem to eclipse her since he's the one trying to commit mass omnicide upon the entire human race, but during his attack on Vermillion City he showed he was purposefully trying to minimize needless casualties, and though he vocally relished the idea of eradicating most of humanity with his plan, the only imminent threat was to the Kanto/Johto mainland and some bordering islands (since this arc was written back when the rest of the World of Pokemon was unknown.) All of Agatha's crimes had no such mitigating factors and she expressed no semblance of remorse.
The thing that really might push her over the line is one detail I'd forgotten all about - that all of the Pokemon armies that the Elite Four sent to terrorize and destroy cities across the Kanto region in order to beat their opposition from the good Gym Leaders (we see an army of Agatha's Ghost Pokemon attacking Cerulean City, an army of Bruno's Pokemon attacking Pewter City, and an army of Lorelei's Pokemon attacking Celadon City) were mentally enslaved by wrist bands that Agatha had placed on them. Even when the Pokemon came from another Elite Four member, their actions were solely on Agatha because she had them under Mind Control and used them as living weapons. This is exactly like what Charon would do years later in the Diamond & Pearl Adventure manga - Mind Raping Pokemon into the feral mental state of a living killing machine that can only fight and possibly even die on a trainers' orders, and innocent civilians are shown to get caught in the crossfire as a result.
Overall - Barring any later appearance where she turns good again (it's been years since she was last seen in-universe and out of it so I'm not counting on it), I think we might have a keeper here.
Edited by ANewMan on Apr 17th 2021 at 7:00:31 AM
to Agatha
to the Anti-Monitor
Edited by G-Editor on Apr 17th 2021 at 6:18:41 AM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffSo now let's discuss the Anti-Monitor from the sequel tie-in comic.
What's The Work?
Scribblenauts Unmasked: A Crisis of Imagination is a tie-in sequel to the Scribblenauts crossover game with the DC Universe. The comic series takes place shortly after the events of the game, where a great threat is causing universe-wide havoc in his attempt to destroy the entire multiverse, which leads the Phantom Stranger to recruit Maxwell and his sister Lilly to return to the DC universe to help stop this great threat.
Who's The Villain?
The Anti-Monitor is the Big Bad mastermind behind all of the events in the comic, after learning from his previous defeats, he decided to be more cunning and has his Shadow Demons take control of civilians and heroes alike which caused universe-wide chaos. Recruiting several supervillains by supplying them with highly advanced weapons to wreak destruction across their respective cities, such as Gotham where we see the Joker almost successfully defeating Batman and his bat family and killing them until Maxwell intervenes and setting Gotham ablaze. We also see that he also has his Shadow Demons take control of heroes, making them fight their allies. Villains were winning the battles and outnumbering the heroes, which forced The Phantom Stranger to get Maxwell and Lily to help the heroes. The Shadow Demons later possessed possibly everyone in Metropolis, turning everyone against Superman and manipulating Luthor into starting a hate mob against Superman. Even Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen were among the hate mob showing distaste towards Superman, and they were also controlled by the Anti-Monitor's shadow demons.
One of these shadow creatures once influence Black Hand into instigating, or at least attempted, to start a Zombie Apocalypse and have them attack the living. He also installs towers that would telepathically control the minds of thousands of people, such as he did with Aquaman during his battle with Black Manta when the fishes he uses for aid turn against him.
Later on, he has his Weaponer Army, the Red Lanterns, and Yellow Lanterns invade the capital city of Ranagar to distract the heroes, while having Psycho Pirate invade Batman in his dream to stall them, trapping Batman in some sort of Lotus-Eater Machine. He has his Weaponers install a tower to Mind Control civilians within the city, driving them crazy and attack each other. He plans to still the Omega Cannon, a weapon capable of transporting planets between dimensions, to open portals between dimensions and destroy the entire multiverse with it, and like Brainiac, the story makes it very clear he's gonna destroy everything in the multiverse.
Because of his actions, villains such as Lex Luthor and Brainiac forced themselves to work with the heroes to stop him (albeit with Brainiac, it's for his own protection). As the heroes invaded his fortress, Anti-Monitor destroys Brainiac's ship and caused an explosion that knocked out every hero except Lily, Maxwell, and Phantom Stranger. The Anti-Monitor later tries to kill the child protagonist until Phantom Stranger protected them and teleport them to Limbo for aid from Madame Xanadu. Anti-Monitor outright kills the Stranger by erasing him from existence for interfering.
He imprisons several heroes in one of his towers on Earth, and that's when he kickstart his Omnicidal plans until Maxwell, with the help of his Doppelganger and his sister, attacks and frees the heroes, and convince the villains to fight against the Anti-Monitor once they were informed of his plans. They gang up on him and defeated him until they learn it was too late.... Anti-Monitor SUCCEEDS in his goal to destroy absolutely everything in the entire multiverse, and I mean everything, everything started fading from existence. The only survivors were Maxwell, his sister, and their doppelgangers surviving. Anti-Monitor tries to kill them, only for Maxwell to summon his brother, The Monitor, and due to him being positive matter, and him being anti-matter, they both exploded, therefore, killing the Anti-Monitor.
Maxwell reset the universe by using his magic notebook, restoring everything the Anti-Monitor destroyed, and ends the series on a positive note.
Mitigating Factors
Nah, he's just the same Anti-Monitor we saw from Infinite Crisis, arrogant, egotistical,thinking he's invincible, and later learns from his previous defeat and became smarter which is how he won and thinks it was his destiny to destroy existence. He does say his right-hand man, Weaponer Maximus, never failed him but that is not mitigating, he just uses him as a pawn like everyone else, and he also erased him from existence like the rest of the multiverse.
The story treats him 100% serious, with his mass omnicide being treated as the series Darkest Hour, thus he's a full on Knight of Cerebus.
Heinous Standards
Brainiac tried to be a Hive Mind and wipe out all life in the multiverse, Anti-Monitor wiped out the entire multiverse and succeeded, and caused universe-wide chaos to further his plans, and had many people possessed by Shadow Demons and use his towers to brainwash people into attacking each other. The story also makes it clear that people will die if he succeeds, and he does succeed in killing people, albeit temporarily.
Final Verdict
Fuck that took me a long ass time to read those comics and make this, I'll leave it up to you if he counts or not.
Edited by Powermaster201 on Apr 17th 2021 at 6:25:08 AM
...Yes to Anti Monitor. His 5th CM. Isn't it Jimmy Olsen though?
Alright... so I recently watched some walkthrough on Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth and I wanted to ask a question about the candidate that was approved, Robert Marsh. Now, I think he's more than a heinous enough and he's a fanatical nutjob. But here's a question: I wonder if his relationship with his great-grandfather in particular is considered to be redeeming or not? Because at one point, when the player is supposed to open the safe in the Esoteric Order of Dagon, the combination itself is actually the year when his great grandfather died. That and there is this comment made by Robert in his diary:
"Innsmouth must remain undisturbed until everything is complete. That which eluded my ancestor Obed on his death in 1878 shall not escape me."
With that said, do you think that Robert's relationship with his great grandfather is considered to be mitigating or not given the comment he made and how he remember the date of his death pretty well to the point it become the code of his safe?

Correct, ACW, Scimina is dead after book 1.