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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#256301: Apr 16th 2021 at 4:58:36 PM

How about a quote

Jimmy: Well, I've got my extension fee all lined up for you as usual.
Sabrina: Extension fee?
Jimmy: Yes. Extension of my contract. Seven more years of life in exchange for an innocent soul. As soon as I finish my shift, we can go, and I'll cut her little heart out and eat it.
Sabrina: What? Are you talking about sacrificing a child?
Jimmy: You betcha. Doesn't get more innocent than a little girl.

Edited by miraculous on Apr 16th 2021 at 4:59:01 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#256303: Apr 16th 2021 at 4:59:51 PM

Dark Danny turns the world into a hellscape not magically but by through terrorizing the populace and only a few villains reach that level and he has the personal villainy and sadism to boot. I know I don't spend much time on this thread but I think he counts. I know he's not an ordinary ghost, but when split before his danny half didn't turn into a homicidal maniac. And Vlad himself isn't pure evil. So his ghost-halves combining to create a much worse person I feel is all on him. I'd go with a keep.

Edited by jjjj2 on Apr 16th 2021 at 8:03:42 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#256304: Apr 16th 2021 at 5:02:17 PM

I am honestly doubting that Dark Danny is not heinous enough.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#256305: Apr 16th 2021 at 5:11:07 PM

Ok, first of all, how about an actual quote from the episode, then?

Vlad: "All you wanted was to make the hurt go away. I honored your wishes. No more painful human emotions to drag you down. Sadly, that freed you up to rip the ghost out of me. And when my evil ghost half mixed with yours, and my evil side overwhelmed you..."

Vlad, as bluntly as possible, states that Dark Danny does not have human emotions anymore and the process of merging their ghost halves "overwhelmed" Danny and turned him completely evil. The process even shows Danny's ghost screaming in pain. This wasn't "just" Vlad separating their ghost halves—this was Vlad removing Danny's human side and emotions completely. The text outright says it. There's no counter to that.

And as for heinousness...again, other villains try to wipe out all life. Other villains threaten Danny's family and friends. Spectra tries to turn an entire high school into monstrous mutants then destroy every male in the city of Amity Park. Undergrowth seeks the extermination of all life. What exactly makes Dark Danny all that much worse? He's not sadistic—he doesn't torture anyone nor draw out any deaths, he's blunt and to the point—and his "rampage" amounts to blasting a buildings and leaving rubble while we get zero actual bodycount or onscreen deaths courtesy of him except his family and friends.

Edited by Ravok on Apr 16th 2021 at 5:16:04 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#256306: Apr 16th 2021 at 5:17:21 PM

I’ll just say cut Danny, I’m not sure about heinousness but I did get some agency issue from him when I first watched it.

jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#256307: Apr 16th 2021 at 5:17:45 PM

I'm not really sure we should take Vlad's word at that; I don't think he's lying it's just his interpretation of what happened. More to the point Dark Danny's rampage is played with far more seriousness then the others are, and there's the personal villainy of on top of that.

And I would say he is sadistic. Psychological sadistic. He laughs maniacally as he straps Danny's friends and family (and Lancer) onto the nasty burger and then inflicts a brutal beating on Danny, all the while laughing at his idealism and drive to protect the people he loves. He earlier gleefully kills his human self cowering in the corner. My two cents.

Anyway threatening the entire world is different when Dark Danny has succeeded. We see the fruits of his efforts and it ain't pretty. There's an implied really big bodycount that the other world threatening villains lack.

[down] I know what he says, I'm saying that's what he thinks happened.

Edited by jjjj2 on Apr 16th 2021 at 8:24:21 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#256308: Apr 16th 2021 at 5:20:00 PM

Yeah. From the transcript

Unfortunately the same could not be said of you, Daniel.

The image fades to one of Vlad's mansion. A car pulls up in front of it

Vlad VO : With nowhere else to go, you came to me—

We see Danny standing sadly in the driveway with his luggage.

Vlad VO :the only person on the planet who could possibly hope to understand your situation.

Vlad puts a hand on Danny's shoulder and smiles, but after glancing at him Danny just looks dully down at the photo of the Fentons and his friends in front of the Fenton Works.

Vlad Go: All you wanted was to make the hurt go away.

Vlad's face saddens. The scene switches and we see Vlad wearing a medical apron and facemask, then zoom out to see Danny unconcious in a large machine, hooked up to a breathing apparatus and a beeping heart monitor.

Vlad VO: I honored your wishes.

Vlad, wearing the Ghost Gauntlets, raises both hands and the Gauntlets glow purple.

Vlad VO: No more painful human emotions to drag you down.

Grinning maniacally, Phantom dons the Gauntlets, picks up Vlad by the shirt, and rips his ghost and human halves apart, flinging the respective sides into opposite walls. Dropping the Gauntlets and going intangible, Phantom flies into Plasmius, who opens blazing green eyes and crackles with energy, then takes Phantom's form.

Vlad VO: And when my evil ghost half mixed with yours, and my evil side overwhelmed you...

Edited by miraculous on Apr 16th 2021 at 5:21:48 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#256309: Apr 16th 2021 at 5:23:18 PM

We’re also seeing a version of Vlad who has no reason to lie anymore or want to cause further discord: he’s lost everything and realized how utterly stupid he was to do the things he did and feel the way he felt.

So no keepers for CM in the show to replace him with? That’s a shame. I would say Dark Danny is presented in such a way that his murderous actions stand out in contrast to other villains, but again, matters not.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#256310: Apr 16th 2021 at 5:24:13 PM

But that's total Alternative Character Interpretation—from what we see and are told, Vlad has no reason to lie in this moment. Assuming he's telling a biased version of the story and we shouldn't take it at face value when we get flashbacks to the event is theorizing, with what we're given in the show itself, he's bluntly stated to have agency issues.

Thing is, him being a Knight of Cerebus doesn't automatically equal him being "worse" by default. Toffee is the most serious villain in Star Vs., but that doesn't mean he's worse than other villains. It just means the story is portraying him more deadly, not objectively "more heinous."

I mean, the guy is—from what we are told in the show, not personal theories—lacking agency, Made of Evil, and is trying to make sure he exists one day. Him indulging in evil laughter and taunting Danny that his family is doomed and Dark Danny is his "future" isn't overly sadistic, especially in a show where villains like Spectra feed on children's suffering and pain and gleefully laughs about it at every time. Dark Danny is a supervillain in a Nicktoon show who throw outs "Reason You Suck" Speech and badass boasts, not some monstrous sadist out to Mind Rape children and commit explicit genocide while characters talk about billions who will die.

Edited by Ravok on Apr 16th 2021 at 5:25:59 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#256311: Apr 16th 2021 at 5:25:26 PM

I still say cut, because he is just not heinous enough in my opinion.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#256312: Apr 16th 2021 at 5:25:41 PM

Vlad is also genuinely depressed and realized how pointless his life has been. He really has no reason to lie or exaggerate.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#256313: Apr 16th 2021 at 5:26:51 PM

No you misunderstand I'm not saying he's lying, I'm saying that's his interpretation of what happened. I've said my two cents. The thread decides how the thread decides.

[down]I mean I gave my reasons for why I think that interpretation is wrong: Danny has separated before and was just fine, and Vlad himself isn't pure evil. I felt like his evil side overwhelming him was just his interpretation, but I felt Dark Danny's evil was all on him.

Edited by jjjj2 on Apr 16th 2021 at 8:30:07 AM

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#256314: Apr 16th 2021 at 5:28:06 PM

But is their any proof if that in the show itself ?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#256315: Apr 16th 2021 at 5:28:21 PM

Also, look at Vaatu from Legend of Korra. He’s literally meant to be the be all end of evil and while he takes pride from it and sadistically enjoys it, he’s still nothing but a force of nature. He’s a spiritual embodiment that has no choice to be as he is (same is also apparently said of Aku from Samurai Jack as well).

Dark Danny is pretty much that in a nutshell and thus, he just is as he is and that’s it.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Apr 16th 2021 at 5:30:30 AM

Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#256316: Apr 16th 2021 at 5:30:07 PM

Now looking at Ravok's points and other arguments I think I'm comfortable to say cut Dark Danny mostly due to agency issues.

Edited by Powermaster201 on Apr 16th 2021 at 8:30:30 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#256317: Apr 16th 2021 at 5:30:53 PM

Having discussed this with Ravok? Cut Dark Danny. Not gonna get into the heinousness but from talking it out I’ve got about a half dozen issues with his agency and “Ghosts have agency” doesn’t work when he’s a half ghost whose jacked up side only appears in desperation to mix with Vlad’s own ghost half, which just compounds the problem.

ASghhrv6ub Best Smile from Second star to the right. Since: Jun, 2020 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Best Smile
#256318: Apr 16th 2021 at 5:31:37 PM

Cut Dark Danny.

Also I have not read the work, but based in the entry I doubt this guy counts, Lepold Le Coul's father from Bataille pour l'espoir, from his article he has two rapes, torture, attempted murder, a very bad abuse, and punching Yumi (I am sure that punch somebody without provocation is a crime but don't remember what crime). That s definetely CM material, but other villain has brainwashing, a killcount of millons, ordered torture, attempted world domination, attempted world destruction, and many attempted murders, and another guy destroyed the Eiffel Tower, killed various CIA agents, become a dicator, and killed the prime minister. This look like the Van Zant point where the difference of resources can make he overpass the standard.

I am the one, I am the one, the godlike terror train, superior artificial brain, feel free to call me Blaine
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#256319: Apr 16th 2021 at 5:31:54 PM

@mir: Yeah, that's my issue—could Vlad be wrong? Big, big maybe. But for us to apply that as a possibility on this thread, it would have to at least be implied in the show he's wrong and seeing things through a skewed lens. But the show never presents anything Vlad says as anything but objective truth meant to be taken at face value. No one says he's seeing things through a skewed point of view, or misinterpreting the situation, or he might not have all the answers...he serves as exposition for how Dark Danny came into being, and nothing in the show ever implies what he says—which is that Dark Danny has no proper human emotions and is overwhelmed by evil—is anything but truth

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#256320: Apr 16th 2021 at 5:32:13 PM

What work is this?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#256321: Apr 16th 2021 at 5:32:22 PM

If Vlad were just speculating or if there were any indication that he's an unreliable source, I'd put more stock in what j's saying. But as far as I can tell, we're supposed to take what he says at face value.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#256322: Apr 16th 2021 at 5:38:02 PM

Yeah the way its presented seems to be that vlad genuinely is telling the 100 percent truth..

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#256323: Apr 16th 2021 at 5:39:27 PM

I'm also gonna add in, which both of the Vlad quotes are making reference to as well, this is the ghost half of Danny, completely fucked up from loss, which we see only briefly from the clips I've watched before he merges with Vlad... the show itself is saying his headspace is messed up and there are too many layers he's going through for me to be anywhere near confident in stamping him down as having agency just because Danny and his ghost half have split before in a less traumatic circumstance.

MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#256325: Apr 16th 2021 at 5:46:38 PM

By the way. I am going to offline for a few days. I have a major surgery tomorrow.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread

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