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Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

    Effortpost template 
What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by nombretomado on Mar 31st 2020 at 8:15:08 AM

May 21st 2014 at 8:16:18 AM

Ok since the votes seem to be mostly against the folder, I think I'll make a quick sandbox to split the entries, to spare the mods the trouble.

But should Sergio Leone's films still be grouped together? The Dollars Trilogy definitely should, but should Once Upon a Time in the West and A Fistful of Dynamite be separated?

edited 21st May '14 8:19:44 AM by TVRulezAgain

HamburgerTime The Merry Monarch of Darkness from Dark World, where we do sincerely have cookies Relationship Status: I know
The Merry Monarch of Darkness
May 21st 2014 at 9:16:34 AM

[up] I think Carver could use a rewrite, myself. The entry as of now mostly describes the Chakra Torture, which isn't even close to the worst thing he does. Been a while since I've seen it, though, so I'm not sure I could write it.

The pig of Hufflepuff pulsed like a large bullfrog. Dumbledore smiled at it, and placed his hand on its head: "You are Hagrid now."
ACW Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.)
May 21st 2014 at 11:51:44 AM

[up]Well, his other crimes are mentioned, but...I saw it, but in theaters. And Onatopp: If you have to go...

Edit: [down][tup]And nice work having the Bond page there.
Edit 2: I'll try and work on Carver tonight, and we can swap the film and lock Bond soon.
Edit 3: Regarding your questions: Don't know about the Hanna entry, but yes to Disney (I added).
Edit 4: Oh kickass, it's the "Title: Entry" format [awesome][awesome][awesome] BTW, I added the Transformers entry; makes sense to mee to have it both on the Transformers page and the Film page (similar to the Moonraker book entry).

edited 21st May '14 3:13:20 PM by ACW

CM Drafts; Pending CM Writeups
May 21st 2014 at 11:56:13 AM

Ok, I made a Film sandbox with no director folder. Look good?

EDIT: Also, two questions regarding film:

  • Was it decided to cut Marissa Wiegler from Hanna?
  • Since the Disney page has a live action section, should it also be listed under "Films with their own page"?

edited 21st May '14 12:43:29 PM by TVRulezAgain

sanfranman91 from Boston, MA Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
May 21st 2014 at 5:42:45 PM

[up] Having rewatched Hanna, there is no reason for Marissa Wiegler to have been removed. I suggest reinstating the entry into the film page since she clears the heinousness standard and commits enough crimes on-screen to qualify.

For director sections, I think that at least three CM qualifiers in order to have a separate sections. As for Exdeath, I concur with Ambar and thus vote [tdown] on him.

On an unrelated note, have we ever discussed Father Mathias from Tomb Raider (2013)? I was going through an entire backlog of games on Steam that I never got around to beating during college and, having finally cleared Tomb Raider (which was otherwise So Okay, It's Average), I think Mathias might qualify. If we haven't previously made a decision, can I make an effortpost on him?

Together, we are one.
May 21st 2014 at 5:48:09 PM

Marissa Wiegler was never removed. She was contested starting here.

sanfranman91 from Boston, MA Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
May 21st 2014 at 5:53:10 PM

[up] Having read post 24881, nah on the redeeming qualities, bro. She states that she looks for US' interests, but she is really focusing on covering up her personal crimes at the super soldier facility Hanna came from. Case in point: she kills Hanna's grandma to prevent knowledge of Hanna's true identity (and thus Marissa's Kill 'Em All shut-down of the facility) from being revealed to others in the film.

I think she's a definite [tup]. I am, however, in favor of rewriting her entry to fit the standards set by this thread.

edited 21st May '14 5:56:41 PM by sanfranman91

Together, we are one.
May 22nd 2014 at 7:42:13 AM

Anyone object if I request the Film swap?

ACW Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.)
May 22nd 2014 at 7:55:08 AM

[up]One second; we may need to rewrite the Hanna entry, and I wanna possibly work on Carver for Bond.

[nja]Carver hopefully tonight. BTW, check out the progress made with the reformatting: Wiki Sandbox smile

edited 22nd May '14 10:58:45 AM by ACW

CM Drafts; Pending CM Writeups
Morgenthaler Angelic.
May 22nd 2014 at 11:34:41 AM

Re: Majora: It seems the moral agency issues have been a topic of discussion since he was first brought up, and was ultimately kept more because the discussion itself petered out than a real decision having been reached on his morality. His Evil Cannot Comprehend Good dialogue wasn't brought up before, though.

To put the scenes into context, Majora is only revealed as the villain at the end when it discards the Skull Kid, whom he has been manipulating to ruin people's lives and use the moon to end the world by performing a Colony Drop. Link enters the moon to pursue him, which is made up of... a lush, green field with a tree in the center with some children playing underneath it. The children are wearing the masks of the four previous bosses, and a lonely-looking one is wearing Majora's Mask, who's sitting underneath the tree by himself as it's ignored by the four other ones.

Link goes through various trials before facing Majora's Mask, and at the end of each trial one of the mysterious children talks to him, asking him curiously about things like morality and friendship, and what these mean to people. In truth we have no way of knowing what is happening. Maybe Link entered a pocket dimension where Majora lives, or it's all an illusion of the mask/monster. Likewise, there's no way of knowing who or what the children are. Maybe they're all Majora wearing different guises, maybe the other four are some sort of spirits and the Majora child is the only real Majora, maybe the children are the true forms of Majora and the spirits, etc. Even if only the second were true, Majora then wants to play a game with Link of "good guys vs bad guys", with Majora as the good guy. Yes, the world-destroying monster earnestly thinks that he is the hero in all this.

Majora is honestly too weird and ambiguous to count. He's either Obliviously Evil, has the intellect of a child, or as it's all too strongly hinted is so alien that he just doesn't understand morality and is honestly curious about it during his talks with Link. There's also the fact that he appears as a neglected child who just wants to have friends which makes me doubt if he doesn't have redeeming traits. As much of an abomination as it is, is Majora ultimately just as much a scared, lonely child as Skull Kid?

Not sure if Sarone was deemed keep. He's currently at 2 keep, 1 unsure/cut.

Was a decision ever reached on Hando from Romper Stomper? He's still listed on the work's YMMV page, but the trope page doesn't link to the item for some reason.

Here's a new write-up for Abaddon from Supernatural.

  • Abaddon was one of the Knights of Hell, demons handpicked by Lucifer to be his strongest and most evil enforcers. She was trained by Cain, the original Knight, but when he fell in love with the human Colette he grew tired of his evil ways and atoned for his crimes. Abaddon tricked Cain into murdering Colette with the First Blade to spite him for choosing a human over her, earning his undying hatred. After millennia of rampaging across the Earth under Hell's banner, she kills a priest in 1958 who was investigating a demon cure before possessing Josie Sands instead of her companion Henry Winchester to infiltrate the Men of Letters. Abaddon notes how Josie is secretly in love with Henry and takes her as a vessel solely to hurt them both. She wipes out the Men of Letters completely in a massacre before traveling into the future where she kills Henry anyway after going back on a deal she made with Sam and Dean. After learning that Hell has been brought under the command of the more pragmatic Crowley in her absence, she sets out to remove him from his position to become Queen of Hell and start a new blood-filled reign of terror on Earth, with torture, murder, and baby-eating in abundance for all her minions. After Crowley regains his human emotions, she kidnaps his son Gavin from 1723 and proceeds to torture him in front of his father. He caves in to her demands and helps her to defeat the Winchesters, but then she decides to kill both Crowley and Gavin anyway.

Also, on Film, some of the entries are too spoiler-tagged. The Bullying and Bad Seed examples in particular are entirely blank. Isn't this trope spoilers off?

edited 22nd May '14 11:48:36 AM by Morgenthaler

In the year three-thousand and thirty, everybody wants to be an MC.
May 22nd 2014 at 11:56:53 AM

Hando is a flat NO. He's a horrible human being and an utter scumbag. He's a racist, skinhead murderer, but he truly cares for his gang as his family. He loves his right-hand man Davie as a brother and is seen gently putting blankets over his men after they pass out drunk to keep them warm.

He's a horrible bastard and he deserves his death, but he's no CM. If nobody else is commenting on Sarone, it'd seem he's a keep.

Have another I'd like to propose: Jimmy Detillo from the film Striking Distance Detillo is a cop who's accused of excessive force on a suspect by another officer named Hardy. in seeming despair, Jimmy commits suicide by jumping off a bridge...except not really.

It turns out Jimmy is sadistic Serial Killer the police were hunting called the Polish Hill Strangler known for his MO of using a rope to strangle women to death. he resurfaces a few years later for revenge against the man who reported him, Tom Hardy. He begins stalking him and murders any women in Hardy's past: ex-girlfriends, friends, even a dispatcher he works with and makes sure that Hardy is the most likely suspect. When Jimmy reveals himself, he has Hardy, Hardy's love interest and Jimmy's own cousin as hostages with intent to murder the lot of them. When Jimmy's father, the police chief, intervenes and tries to stop Jimmy, Jimmy guns him down without a care and resumes trying to kill Hardy until Hardy finishes him.

Pretty decently high body count from his stint as a serial killer years apart, patricide, and this level of bastardry, I'd say welcome to the list

edited 22nd May '14 12:06:20 PM by Lightysnake

ACW Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.)
May 22nd 2014 at 12:22:25 PM

Geeze, even without the Serial Killer stuff, Jimmy seems like a [tup] to me.
As for spoilers, here's how to do them right (from Hack/Slash):

The Big Bad is Akakios, AKA Samhain. At first he is a man with Laser-Guided Amnesia and a Dark and Troubled Past who is an ally and later lover of heroine Cassandra Hack. After a series of events, however, it is revealed that Samhain is the original "slasher," Akakios, founder of the evil Black Lamp Society. Regaining his memories and true personality, Akakios is disgusted by his former self's feelings for Cassandra, reasoning he could have taken her any time "whether she wanted it or not." Akakios forges the undead slashers into a fighting force and systematically kidnaps or kills everyone Cassie loved, purging the upper echelons of the Black Lamp Society for being "too nice," despite their own atrocities. Akakios plans to spread the slasher disease, turning innocent humans all over the globe into murderous monsters.''
Or any of the examples at Ace Attorney. Or the Deadly Premonition entry. I can go through those after fixing Carver.
Lighty, you forgot the link to Hylden Lord at the requests page.

edited 22nd May '14 12:23:50 PM by ACW

CM Drafts; Pending CM Writeups
May 22nd 2014 at 12:25:43 PM

I didn't forget. I wanted to make sure the matter was settled before i request him added

ACW Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.)
May 22nd 2014 at 12:49:36 PM

Ah, makes sense. And then once they're added I'll do the YMMVs as necessary (sans the Anime ones).

CM Drafts; Pending CM Writeups
Morgenthaler Angelic.
May 22nd 2014 at 1:31:06 PM

Alright, I cut Hando.

[tup] for Jimmy. Also [tup] to Jack the Ripper. Considering he made a conscious effort to abandon all redeeming traits by embracing his enjoyment of serial killing to power his immortality removes any doubt I had on him. His choice of prostitutes as Acceptable Targets rather than rich citizens or royalty also seems to say a lot more about his personal misogyny than any standards he might have.

Here's a new write-up for Sarone.

  • Paul Sarone from Anaconda is a former priest from Paraguay who decided to become a snake poacher in the Amazon, catching them for rich clients. He arranged with his old hunting partner Matteo to lure a documentary film crew to a giant, man-eating Anaconda's home territory to use them as bait for the hunt. He incapacitates the team leader with a poisonous wasp before saving his life to win the crew's trust and offers them a "shortcut" that leads right into the snake's territory. The passengers are picked off one by one by the Anaconda, which crushes its prey in its coils before slowly digesting them alive. Sarone manipulates one of them into becoming his "partner", but he sacrifices the guy without a second thought when he prevents the others from shooting the snake when it grabs his ally, because he can't make a profit off a dead animal. He strangles a woman to death with his thighs when she's come to get revenge for her dead boyfriend. He is ultimately overthrown but escapes, and captures two of the remaining people inside the Anaconda's feeding grounds. He douses them with monkey blood and tries to feed them to the snake so he can trap it, while mocking their impending deaths.

Any thoughts on Majora, Lightysnake? It seems you questioned Septimus on Majora's moral agency originally.

[down] Ah, gotcha.

edited 22nd May '14 2:45:11 PM by Morgenthaler

In the year three-thousand and thirty, everybody wants to be an MC.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
May 22nd 2014 at 1:34:10 PM

Just as a reminder: When talking about The Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask I am always referring to stuff that other people like ~Tropers/{{32_Footsteps}} said on Majora's moral agency.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
AustinDR from Fresh and ready for life.
May 22nd 2014 at 4:21:44 PM

On Majora, what about that whole "I will consume...consume everything..." quote it made when it possessed the Moon?

Why you little-!
ACW Unofficial Wiki Curator for Complete Monster from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.)
May 22nd 2014 at 11:56:46 PM

I'd say Majora's a keep. With the details outlined in 25598 and the quote Austin mentioned, he fits the profile of Psychopathic Manchild (so to speak) and seems conscious of the harm he's causing. Evil Cannot Comprehend Good isn't a disqualifier, nor is a villain thinking he's the good guy (besides, he did say they'd be playing "good guys against bad guys").

For all we know, Majora has as much moral agency as the next Eldritch Abomination, and seems to enjoy humiliating its victims with its transformations (turning Kafei into a child just days before his wedding, for instance). While he only appears onscreen at the very end of the game, he acts through Skull Kid throughout, and the game's world is littered with instances of suffering that he's caused.

May 23rd 2014 at 12:05:55 AM

So, I'm hoping for a conclusion of the examples I raised from Oz a few pages back:

By my count, my vote included, Howell is looking at being confirmed 3-0 and Kirk 2-1 (though that 1 may have been an abstention). I'll leave it for a couple of days before I start with the write-ups.

edited 23rd May '14 12:06:30 AM by BigglesTh9

JHM Apparition in the Woods from Niemandswasser Relationship Status: Hounds of love are hunting
Apparition in the Woods
May 23rd 2014 at 12:20:14 AM

So, I just read Iain M. Banks' Matter, and I am wondering whether or not the Iln world-killer ship might qualify. It is certainly destructive and sadistic enough, but I am a little torn on agency...

I'll hide your name inside a word and paint your eyes with false perception.
May 23rd 2014 at 12:30:07 AM

Honestly, I'd lean nay on the ship...Banks does have other villains who might be in the running, though. Luseferous was one example.

Morgenthaler Angelic.
May 23rd 2014 at 1:28:19 AM

[tup] For Oz's Kirk and Howell both. I'd say they manage to stand out from their competition well enough to meet the heinous bar in that dark setting.

@ Austin DR: "I will consume everything" doesn't tell us anything in the way of moral agency. It proves that he's going to destroy the world, which is exactly what he is: an Omnicidal Maniac Eldritch Abomination.

@ Biggles: You've got it backwards there. The whole point of the Eldritch Abomination trope is that they're incomprehensible terrors who can snuff out humanity in an instant, but which we have no hope of understanding because they operate on an indecipherable type of morality, if any. Characters like Nyarlathotep are the exception, not the rule.

Evil Cannot Comprehend Good (literally, in this case) is also a real disqualifier if it negatively impacts a candidate's moral agency. Majora is not some human psychopath like Voldemort who just thinks love is a weakness and cruelty is virtue — he's an inhuman monster whose origin is never revealed and approaches humanity from a very different level. On the "good guys and bad guys" thing, Majora really doesn't strike me as some deranged lunatic who thinks he's a hero while slaughtering people. He never even pretends to be fighting for some greater good like a hypocritical Knight Templar would (think Frollo), but approaches it in the sense that he genuinely doesn't understand, making him Obliviously Evil. Why would he specifically have moral agency if the other Moon Children don't (who may very well be him, I should point out)?

You're also not adressing that Majora appears as a lonely child in the moon-field with other kids ignoring him. Further, when Link finally talks to him after the other Moon Children have disappeared, Majora initially looks around confused and is saddened that they're all gone before he asks Link to play a game with him. That would disqualify him by itself for redeeming traits.

edited 23rd May '14 1:53:56 AM by Morgenthaler

In the year three-thousand and thirty, everybody wants to be an MC.
May 23rd 2014 at 1:54:08 AM

[up] I might have worded this poorly, but I don't think Majora even considers itself good. It seems to have an abstract grasp of the ideas of good and evil, and mocks them with his "good guys against bad guys" remark. As for looking lonely, it might just have been upset to no longer have a captive audience. All we can be sure of is that it has some intellectual curiosity in the idea of friendship.

From what I know about Nyarlothotep, it seems Majora is essentially a very similar character. Both are ancient beings that have driven civilizations to extinction with their manipulations, displaying some understanding of what makes people tick and enjoyment in tormenting them.

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