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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#255126: Apr 7th 2021 at 4:12:52 AM

[tup]marmoo

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#255128: Apr 7th 2021 at 4:35:24 AM

Please add Kor to the Drafts. So Sinister Minister for both him AND Erebus?

krimzonflygon2 Since: Jul, 2013
#255129: Apr 7th 2021 at 4:40:14 AM

[up]Word Bearers. The higher ranking members are Sinister Ministers by definition.

Edited by krimzonflygon2 on Apr 7th 2021 at 4:40:56 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#255130: Apr 7th 2021 at 4:41:35 AM

And yet, it manages to work: Both instigators of one of the most infamous 40K events with the same pothole.

CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
YamiVizziniX Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
#255132: Apr 7th 2021 at 5:24:27 AM

It doesn't justify what he's doing, but is it clear that Alliser doesn't really care about his mother?

[tup] to Marmite

There is no beginning. There is no end. There is only... Hooty.
FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#255133: Apr 7th 2021 at 5:57:57 AM

[up] Looking back, I'd like some clarification on that as well. When I initially read the effortpost I thought the Freudian Excuse bit was saying that he truly didn't care about his mother and just used her death as a handy bit of emotional manipulation to justify the horrible things he does. But after re-reading it I'm honestly a bit lost and can't tell if it's confirming my initial thoughts, or if it's merely describing Mithra telling Alliser that tragic past or not, enslaving kids isn't cool.

LargoQuagmire Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
TellAll111 Since: Jun, 2010
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#255139: Apr 7th 2021 at 7:59:32 AM

Guys. Can we hold off on voting for alister till the mother thing is resolved.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#255140: Apr 7th 2021 at 8:27:16 AM

Agreed...is this removing the notion he cares for her or jsut Freudian Excuse Is No Excuse?

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#255141: Apr 7th 2021 at 8:32:27 AM

Btw for The Proposition. What's up with fletcher's entry. Why does it gloss over him trying to literally massacre an entire ethnic group and just have it as a last line that's basically and he does that too.

  • Complete Monster: Eden Fletcher is the town's leading citizen, and a Knight Templar par excellence. Enraged by Captain Stanley's decision to turn accused rapist and murderer Charlie Burns loose, Fletcher convinces the townsfolk that Charlie's younger brother Mikey, who is both 14 and severely handicapped, should be punished in place of Charlie, and their older brother Arthur, who actually committed the crime. Fletcher manipulates a mob of townsfolk, including Stanley's wife, Martha, into demanding that Mikey get one hundred lashes. By forty lashes, Mikey is dying from blood loss, the rest of the townsfolk are turning away in horror, Martha has fainted, and Fletcher is still demanding that the other sixty lashes be meted out. When Stanley refuses, Fletcher has him fired, knowing that his actions will bring Arthur Burns down on the town. Couple this with his order to Stanley to kill every Aborigine in the region, and we are dealing with a thoroughly detestable man.

Edited by miraculous on Apr 7th 2021 at 8:32:52 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#255142: Apr 7th 2021 at 8:43:56 AM

That's one of the older writeups. Lighty, I think that's yours? Or at least you're familiar with the work.

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#255143: Apr 7th 2021 at 8:50:37 AM

It has been a while but now I will do a proposal.

What is the Work

Alex Rider is an ongoing series of spy novels, however, those are not what we are going to be talking about but instead the 2020 tv series adaptation also named just Alex Rider.

Who is Dr. Hugo Greif and What Has He Done?

Also in case, you were wondering, that spelling of Greif was on purpose in the show he is called that, anyway on to his history.

Dr. Hugo Greif was in the past a research scientist in the field of cloning, first in Turkey and then in South Africa, he was expelled however for ethical violations that he was expelled from both countries due to ethical violation and eventually vanished before he resurfaced many years later and founded the Point Blanc academy.

He would begin his plan to take over the entire world, he was inspired by multiple dictators including Adolf Hiler, Mao and Stalin. To do so he would market his academy as a place for troubled teens. He would only grab the children of rich influential industrialists and then he would replace them with clones of himself surgically altered to look like the teens.

He locked the teens inside a basement in the academy and had them tortured for information that the clones could use. And many of them would end up going insane as a result. He wanted to use the clones to take over the entire world and part of his plan would involve wiping out over 99% of the entire world so only the strong could survive. He would do this by sending the clones back to their families and then killing their parents so they could never discover about the swap.

His plan was working well until Alex Rider arrived at the school calling himself Alex Friend. At this point, the process had nearly been completed and Greif killed Walter Baxter as he was no longer useful to him. He also had the full intention of killing all of the teens once they were no longer useful to him stating this outright on more than one occasion.

His plan, however, is uncovered by Alex Rider and he ends up arrested and in order to cover up any loose ends, Yassen Gregorovich assassinates him.

Does he have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

He doesn’t really have anything significant. The only people he really cares about at all are his clones. But he only views them as a means to an end rather than anything else and is perfectly willing to let them die if it means saving himself, this also includes Eva Stellenbosch. He does speak to his plans being for the good of humanity that his mass cull is to stop overpopulation, but in reality, he only cares about making a better world for himself to rule over something that Alex and other characters call him out on. Other than that he has no redeeming qualities or tragic past to speak of he is just an awful man nothing more nothing less.

No one thing I should bring up since this guy is an adaptation is if he is significantly different. First of all the original Hugo Grief doesn’t qualify as a CM for reasons I will get into. Even without that though he still has a few significant differences, his motivation is different doing his plans not out of racism but admiration for other dictators making his personality significantly different as well, he also had fewer clones compared to the novels as well as is less sadistic compared to the novels being more cold and pragmatic. As well as that his plans for mass global genocide are not in the novel and motivated out of controlling the population, as in the novel it was racially motivated.

Does he meet the Heinousness Standard?

Alright, some of you were probably waiting for this. The reason that Hugo Grief does not qualify in the novels is that despite how terrible he is there as well the other villains in the sequels from what I have heard are even worse.

Well first of all I should say that he meets the general standard very easily; multiple deaths of the parents of the children he captures. Locking up and torturing 8 teens and causing multiple of them to go insane and fully planning to kill them when they were no longer useful. And his final plan is a mass cull of 99% of the world.

However in the show so far the only novel to be covered is Point Blanc, and even in the future isn’t planning to adapt all of them so Greif has a lot less to deal with. His only competition is Eva and Gregorovich. Eva’s actions are completely under his orders and Gregorovich is a paid assassin who killed most of the people we know under his orders with his few outside of his orders paling in comparison.

Final Verdict?

I would say yes

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#255144: Apr 7th 2021 at 8:56:00 AM

[tdown]Grief.

For a couple of examples of examples of Bad Guys here other then the three listed.

  • sayle tries to kill every kid in England.

  • Alexei Sarov plans to nuke millions of people.

  • Damian Cray tries to massacre millions across Asia.

  • Nikolei Drevin wants to destroy the entire of Washington dc

Etc. Etc.

Grief has one of the lowest bodycpunts in the series

Edit : oh your proposing from the show... My bad. Sure their ten

Edited by miraculous on Apr 7th 2021 at 8:59:00 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#255145: Apr 7th 2021 at 8:57:59 AM

[up] I get the feeling you didn't read the proposal I am talking about the TV Series none of those villains are in it.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#255146: Apr 7th 2021 at 8:59:20 AM

Sorry missed that part.

[tup]Grief.

[down]I didn't notice okay.

Edited by miraculous on Apr 7th 2021 at 8:59:55 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
DoodSlayer136 It's Him from SAGE (Snick Amateur Game Expo) (Experienced, Not Yet Jaded) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
It's Him
#255147: Apr 7th 2021 at 8:59:22 AM

Sure to Greif.

Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Apr 7th 2021 at 8:59:57 AM

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#255148: Apr 7th 2021 at 9:00:17 AM

Going just off of the show, [tup] to Greif

Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#255149: Apr 7th 2021 at 9:01:25 AM

[tup] to TV Greif, funny how we got two villains from Alex Rider only counting in adaptations because of the original source having a ridiculous heinous standard.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP

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