During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Hey all, I have a question about a potential keeper I might have. It's from a book called Flush, a young adult novel by Carl Hiaasen. If anyone else has read the book, feel free to jump in, but I have a couple questions first.
1. In terms of heinousness, his rap sheet is attempting to kill three people - is that enough for an otherwise relatively harmless young adult novel? Like, it's in the modern day real world, so it's not a dystopia like The Hunger Games.
2. He has a son, but he's a billionaire who just hands the son a credit card and other than that doesn't seem to actually care about him - there's no evidence that he necessarily loves the kid, but there's also no evidence that he doesn't love him either.
I figured I'd get these two hypotheticals out of the way before writing a full EP - any thoughts?
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Second point is debatable, but the heinousness issue you raised is what really gives me pause, as I don't think it would pass the general heinousness standard we apply to all works. As you said, it's probably a lower heinousness standard compared to something like Hunger Games, but there is a baseline that needs to be crossed and I'm afraid three attempted murders isn't going to cut, unless he was planning on doing something exceptional like torturing them. It's sort of a similar case to Boticelli Remorso from The Tale of Despereaux, where he's definitely the most heinous character in an otherwise lighthearted work, but a couple of attempted murders isn't enough to cross the general heinousness standard. Still, if you wish to bring it up as a formal effort post, I'd be more than happy to hear it.
Edited by DrUnknown on Apr 1st 2021 at 8:27:03 AM
- Zorikan the Barbarian: The eponymous barbarian is the leader of a horde of Seracens who, in the first minutes of the movie, Rape, Pillage, and Burn their way through a giant settlement of Christians to make off with their treasure. When Zorikan loses the treasure, he stops at nothing to regain it, scarcely even looking at the corpse of his own brother after the latter dies trying to get the treasure to Zorikan. Zorikan has droves of civilians rounded up from the countryside, imploring his men to torture every prisoner they have for information and even participating himself, having an old man tied between two horses and ordering them to walk in separate directions until the old man dies. Zorikan eventually orders all the innocent civilians dumped into the nearest canyon out of spite.
- Clive Barker's Night Breed:
- Rawhead Rex himself is resurrected years after the events of his original story, powered by a screaming infant he keeps stewing alive within his gut. Rawhead gets up to old habits not long after being resurrected, turning his appetites toward a diner full of innocent people and the Nightbreed. Flashbacks establish Rawhead used to gang-rape human women alongside his monstrous brethren and then leave them back in civilization, where he made a game of watching the resultant spawn tear out of the women and subsequently be butchered by horrified onlookers seconds after their birth.
- Ozymandias, one of the first Nightbreed, was the emissary of the pagan god Baphomet who came to uplift the persecuted Nightbreed 6,000 years ago. Ozymandias became disillusioned with Baphomet's apathy toward his people, and slowly began to steer the Nightbreed toward corruption and decadence for the sake of his own egotism instead. Under Ozymandias' rule, the Nightbreed's civilization degenerated into a human-sacrificing Wretched Hive so horrifying Baphomet finally stepped in to personally wipe everyone out. Ozymandias refused to even save his own mother from being flung to her death in the catastrophe. In the modern day, Ozymandias possesses Baphomet in a moment of weakness and tries to resurrect the old days of slaughter and sacrifice, gleefully raping one of the Nightbreed the moment he has Baphomet's body under his control and later rallying a mob of Nightbreed to slaughter the nearest human town to the last person.
Edited by Scraggle on Apr 1st 2021 at 9:34:55 AM
Also, hey ya'll, I got the Johnson & Johnson vaccine today - hooray for full vaccination! - but the side effects are starting to hit me like a freight train, so I probably won't be very active tomorrow. I might still lurk, but that'll probably be it. If you happen to get that particular shot, brace yourself for shivers and soreness - it hits you something fierce.
Might as well get all my shit out as well.
- The Spine of Night (2021):
- Ghal-Sur, at first an unassuming scholar, is actually an evil sorcerer who seeks to obtain the power of the gods. Manipulating the swamp queen Tzod into helping him escape his prison, Ghal-Sur afterwards kills her and takes her powerful Bloom flowers. Becoming the prophet of a large town, Ghal-Sur tricks the town’s leader Uruq into helping him obtain more power and his freedom by tasking Uruq to massacre his own citizens. With the gods’ power now his after killing Uruq and absorbing his empowered soul, Ghal-Sur launches a worldwide conquest march, laying waste to countless villages throughout the centuries, while keeping captives around as slave labor. After Tzod is resurrected and steals his Bloom flowers, Ghal-Sur hunts her down with the intent of killing her again and continuing his trail of conquest.
- Grand Inquisitor Uruq is the iron-fisted ruler of a large town. Separating his town into halves, Uruq denies one half of food and knowledge, keeping their books for himself while allowing his guards to kill any peasant who tries to retrieve them. Allying himself with Ghal-Sur by making him the town’s prophet, Uruq regularly hands him women to be killed for their blood. Seeking to obtain complete knowledge and power, Uruq works with Ghal-Sur to start a war between his town’s peasants and guards, using all the blood spilt to increase Ghal-Sur’s magic. With ultimate power now at his disposal, Uruq tries to kill his remaining guards and all those loyal to him.
- Assault on Death Mountain (1999 Made-for-TV Movie): Dr. Sarkisian is a deadly scientist from Mike McBride’s past. Creating poisonous gases to be sold to terrorists, Sarkisian had used it on Mike’s entire squad and several civilians. Undergoing plastic surgery and spending his time assisting terrorists with his gas, Sarkisian plans to launch a missile containing his gas onto Seattle, which will spread across the United States and kill billions. When a captured Mike is in his grasp, Sarkisian injects him with a poison, leaving him behind with the intent to be tortured for three days. During his and Mike’s final fistfight, Sarkisian tries to inject Mike with a serum that will grant him an incredibly painful death.
I know I barely post in this thread, but I have to point out that Flush is written by Hiaasen, and many of his novels all take place in what I like to call the Carl Hiaasen Floridaverse. I do know some of other kid novels have references to his adult novels, which have several environmental eco-terrorists and Psycho for Hires abound, often times with rapsheets far exceeding three people. Of course a common theme in Hiaasen's books is to contrast the psychos with big business types who are polluting Florida in one way or another. So he might count anyway...
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the midThis is my second EP, also of Hitman.
What Is the Work?
Hitman: Enemy Within
, released in 2007, is a novel based on the Hitman series, which centers around Agent 47, an assassin working for the International Contract Agency (ICA). In Enemy Within, the ICA is drawn to a war with a rival assassination agency known as Puissance Treize (Power Thirteen). On the board of Puissance Treize is our subject, Moroccan businessman Ali bin Ahmed bin Saleh Al-Fulani.
Who Is Ali bin Ahmed bin Saleh Al-Fulani and what has he done?
At first glance, Al-Fulani is a benevolent philanthropist funding several orphanages and police charities. In truth, however, Al-Fulani gained his fortune from drug smuggling and a child prostitution ring, the latter of which he himself frequents. International drug cartels attempted to buy his smuggling ring out, but Al-Fulani and even had their top members killed when negotiations soured.
We first meet Al-Fulani through the eyes of Marla Norton (real name Cassandra Murphy), a Puissance Treize hitwoman who, at his request, had been reassigned to his bodyguard detail after failing to assassinate 47. Al-Fulani tortures and interrogates Professor Paul Rollet, who had recently spoken to 47, and despite promising to spare him, has Marla promptly execute him after getting the necessary information. When Marla advises that he stay away from the orphanage to avoid 47, Al-Fulani complains "the children will miss me" and suggests that he organise a "party".
We get a good look at Al-Fulani's business when 47 infiltrates Al-Fulani orphanage as the steward of one of the customers, Wayne Bedo, planning to kill Bedo and kidnap Al-Fulani. 47 is revulsed by the scantily clad children having to perform a "talent show" and distracts himself by reminiscing about killing one of his clone brothers. As the performance concludes and the masked customers take the children upstairs, 47 is almost spotted by Marla and is forced to abort the mission.
After Cartel hitmen fail to assassinate him, Al-Fulani forces Marla to join him as he has sex with a sobbing child, and he and Marla soon flee to Chad to avoid 47. Against Marla's advice, Al-Fulani stops to buy more child sex slaves, separating siblings Kola and Baka and allowing 47 to catch up with him.
After a hectic gunfight, 47 captures Al-Fulani and interrogates him, equipping Kola and the other children with knives. Al-Fulani begs 47 not to "let the little bitch touch me" and confesses that ICA Director Aristotle Thorakis is working with Puissance Treize. Kola and the other children proceed to stab Al-Fulani to death.
Redeeming Qualities?
Al-Fulani is rather friendly, though clearly Faux Affably Evil, and the narration mentions that he is "genuinely fond" of Marla even though he considers her a "Western whore". He does force her to rape a child with him, so this genuine fondness could very well be twisted lust.
Heinousness?
My previous EP was rejected for his crimes being entirely off-screen. I think Al-Fulani would fix that.
There is a scene where Al-Fulani beckons Marla into a room with a sobbing child, and it's mentioned that he "spent the night with two of the children". I think it is explicit enough.
As the books are a separate continuity, I'm not sure if the CMs of the games are competition, which currently consist of a brutal mercenary, two doomsday cult leaders and a Serial Killer. I think a child rapist and child sex trafficker would be disgustingly unique enough to fit in.
Conclusion
I would say he's a keeper.
Waiting to vote on the Hitman baddie until
is answered.
Stay safe Star, and great job!
Now then, following up my previous "discussing a candidate overlooked for awhile", here's another one ladies and gents, who I've pondered for quite some time before taking the leap with this one:
What's the work?
Teen Titans is a modern day classic superhero cartoon that aired on Cartoon Network in the mid-2000s and served as many's first major introduction to the DC universe. The show followed the five Teen Titans—Robin, Starfire, Beast Boy, Cyborg and Raven—and their various clashes with different villains in protecting their home of Jump City and, sometimes, even the world.
The franchise already has 3 Keepers—2 from the show itself and 1 from a tie-in comic—so how's about I go ahead and make an attempt for a character who makes notable appearances in both?
Who is the Brain? What has he done?
A case of Exactly What It Says on the Tin, the Brain is a squishy, disembodied brain inhabiting a mechanical cylinder with a robotic voice to match his appearance and a heavy enjoyment of chess metaphors, and serves as the Big Bad of the show's final season.
An enemy of the heroic Doom Patrol team for years, the Brain's first appearance sees him capture all members of the Doom Patrol bar Robot Man—who the Brain leaves shut down to rust into extinction—and Beast Boy who has, of course, joined the Teen Titans and not been with Doom Patrol for years. The rest of Doom Patrol, comprised of leader Mento, Elasti-Girl, and Negative Man, are trapped in cages specially designed to cause them discomfort and pain, with the Brain taking cold, sadistic joy from torturing Mento with electricity.
Unveiling a device he had tried to construct years ago, a quantum generator capable of creating black holes, the Brain tries to force Mento to "admit" the Brain is victorious, slowly crushing Elasti-Girl inside her cage inch by inch for every second Mento doesn't cow to the Brain's insane ego. Luckily, a reactivated Robot Man and the Teen Titans arrive and save the Doom Patrol.
The Brain reveals the quantum generator to all of the heroes he faces, bragging that he can use it to destroy entire cities, and—as a map shows various locations he has targeted as possible strike points—the Brain settles on annihilating the Titans' home of Jump City and its entire population to serve as a spiteful showing of its power.
Beaten back and the generator destroyed, the Brain decides that he's done trying to carry out brilliant plans while heroes exist to stop him...therefore? He amasses an army of supervillains under his "Brotherhood of Evil" banner, and declares war on all superheroes of the world. Throughout his appearances, the Brain....
- Orchestrates for a variety of heroes to be ambushed and captured
- Sends his right-hand gorilla Monsieur Mallah to capture three literal toddlers/children who showcase powers to eliminate them from becoming potential threats
- As seen in the tie-in comic Teen Titans Go!, carries out a plan to mind control 40,000 people in a baseball stadium and use them as hostages, and later dispatches the mind-altering villain Phobia to subject all five Teen Titans to horrid Mind Rape based around their worst fears—such as Cyborg being a victim of forced roboticization or Starfire sold into slavery.
Eventually, as the series nears its' end, the Brain strikes harder and faster than ever before, rounding up dozens of heroes and capturing even Robin himself. The Brain's purpose for all these captures? To freeze every single superpowered individual not under his control solid and display them as trophies in his lair beneath Paris, France, with the Brain racking up dozens of victims already, after which he can go about conquering the world in his own sweet time.
Unfortunately for the Brain, the remaining heroes who haven't been flash frozen stage an attack on his lair and fight with his army of Brotherhood villains, freeing their heroic allies from their icy states...the Brain, not missing a beat? Promptly has Mallah begin spiriting him away from the base, bragging that "Sometimes, the only way to win is to clear the board completely."
By which he means, of course, detonating a fusion bomb in his own lair and wiping out every last hero and his own allies in one fell swoop, with the bomb being big enough that it will take out a chunk of Paris with it.
Thankfully for all, our heroes teleport the bomb into space safely and the Brain is prevented from escaping, instead experiencing some serious karma as himself and his villainous cohorts are themselves frozen by their own machine, ready to be taken into custody.
Freudian Excuse or other redeeming features?
Not really, no. The Brain's a Card-Carrying Villain who simply loves all things evil, and while his relationship with Mallah is genial enough, there's....really nothing that ever implies the Brain has genuine feelings for Mallah except as a loyal monkey. Mallah for his part does seem to care for his boss, but the Brain himself really does nothing to reciprocate or show actual, disqualifying care.
Heinousness?
Teen Titans has a high standard....Slade is a particularly horrid villain who is downright shocking to see in a cartoon, Trigon tries to plunge the world into Hell on Earth, and—though threatening an entire city isn't common—a stray villain like Brother Blood does nearly wipe out all of Jump City.
The Brain, though? I do think passes, if only barely. He tries to wipe out Jump City with the quantum generator while explicitly having other targets labelled on his map, he subjects the Doom Patrol to torture and threatens to slowly crush Elasti-Girl for sadism and ego's sake, he lets other villains run rampant and unleashes the likes of Phobia onto the Titans, he's even hunting literal toddlers who display superpowers to be frozen alive for his "collection"...
Admittedly, the Brain's final scheme isn't all that bad: freezing dozens upon dozens of heroes alive to serve as trophies so no one will be in his way for world domination. But what gives the Brain another good kick, IMO? His reaction to losing it to set off a bomb that will kill the hellton of heroes and villains alike in his base, the Brain happy to abandon his partners like Madame Rouge and General Immortus as well as other minions to their deaths to secure his own escape. That's a level of treacherous, diabolical mass murder of allies and cohorts that almost no other villain gets up to in the show, and on top of everything else?
The Brain isn't a rampaging dark god like Trigon. He doesn't make a deal with said dark god for power like Slade. He's a brain in a jar with an organization of evil who goes about trying to decimate cities, subjecting heroes to horrible torture and fates as living trophies, then tries to wipe out every last hero and villain at once when he's nearing defeat.
Final Verdict?
I'm happy to give the Brain a 'Yes'. He's the absolute worst the show has to offer except Slade and Trigon themselves, both of whom have far more power at their disposal for their worst deeds, and while Slade is certainly punching at a higher viscerally nasty scale with his wretched abuse of Terra, the Brain is no slouch in torturing heroes and mistreating allies either. I say he Keeps.
Edited by Ravok on Apr 2nd 2021 at 12:56:33 PM
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Al-Fulani
Was considering doing an April Fools Day post, like a fake EP for "Fart-Fart Bumbersnizzle from Princess Unicorn Saves the Rainbow Bunnies", but I wasn't sure if I'd get in trouble for it or not, so I decided against it.
Happy late April Fools to everyone though.
Edited by SumDumNerd on Apr 1st 2021 at 11:40:41 AM
Read Slender Man vs Siren Head 2: The Foundation hereHmmm, in Teen Titans it seems to be hard to be as monstrous or destructive as Slade and Trigon, but I presume that Brain has limited resources and does use them to the full extent of his villainy. Honestly, I would consider voting him down since his plan for the Titans (namely freezing them) is kinda tame compared to what Slade would do... but that last act of spite that also includes his own allies is a deciding factor here so a
unless someone can counterargue Brain's inclusion.
It's rather ironic on the Brain. He doesn't count in the comics because he's in a loving gay relationship with Monsieur Mallah, but they cut that out of the cartoon for obvious reasons. So be cutting that out, they removed one of his defining redeeming qualities.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.On the Al-Fulani child rape scene, it's mentioned "the Puissance Treize had to do whatever the Moroccan wanted her to", so she is clearly doing so against her will and at his.
While he is generally polite and pleasant to her, Al-Fulani doesn't particularly look out for or comfort Marla, and she's far from a Morality Pet considering the above scene.

Here's my writeup for Gray Fly.
Edited by Powermaster201 on Apr 1st 2021 at 10:39:22 AM