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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#254401: Apr 1st 2021 at 3:06:41 PM

Definitely [tup] to Ahmed in that case then. Funny enough that's one of the few books of the original series I never read.

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#254402: Apr 1st 2021 at 3:09:23 PM

RE: Lighty Snake

Sounds good, to explain the kidnapping, manipulating and treachery part briefly.

In all versions of Shadow Dragon, its said Gharnef's allegiance with Medeus is very tenuous, leading to both planning counters of eachother and Gharnef openly reveals to Marth he plans to backstab Medeus. Whilst he doesn't plan to betray him in Mystery, this is only because Gharnef now wants to cause as much death and destruction as he can and sees Medeus as his best bet do do so.

Similarly Jiol says Gharnef convinced him to betray Altea for his safety and muses the lack of support he's getting from his allies at Dolhr is Gharnef betraying him in turn.

Its similarly said Gharnef manipulated Michalis without magic by spreading rumors that his father was to disown him.

In the DS version, Gharnef also says Marth killing his allies played into his plan as now there is no one left to oppose from taking complete lower.

Its revealed in Mystery of the Emblem and Archanea Saga, when the King of Grust, Ludwik, who was an ally of Dolhr, sent his children away to safety in Khadein during the war. Gharnef intercepted the children and locked them in a dark room, providing little food and water, and further blackmailed Ludwik with his children’s livelihood on the line.

When the sage Wendell found and rescued them after the war of Shadows, the two twins were both malnourished and near death. This plot point is given in the original and remake of Mystery of the Emblem.

I'll use the first write up that mentions the kidnapping, then right?

Edited by Monsund on Apr 1st 2021 at 3:11:23 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#254403: Apr 1st 2021 at 3:17:43 PM

Whichever Gharnef writeup we're using, please add to the Drafts.

EDIT: Also, out of curiosity, is R. L. Stine the only creator to have two separate works each have a CM page? And I'm talking individuals or small groups of people, so, for example, Capcom doesn't count for Resident Evil and Mega Man.

Edited by ACW on Apr 1st 2021 at 6:28:41 AM

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#254405: Apr 1st 2021 at 3:33:09 PM

Here's Nishikawa

  • "Old Blue Castle Investigation Case": Mutsumi Nishikawa was a maid working for the Mamiya family who became obsessed with finding the treasure the family patriarch left in his castle. To this end, Mutsumi set fire to one of the castle’s towers to fake her death, killing over a dozen people, and then killed and impersonated Masuyo Mamiya. When a man was hired to investigate the tower, Mutsumi starved him to death and dumped his body in the woods. When Professor Agasa and the Detective Boys arrive at the castle, Mutsumi stalks and attacks them, gloating about her plan to starve all of them to death so they wouldn’t get between her and the treasure.

[down][down]She will go first in the tree.

Edited by papyru30 on Apr 1st 2021 at 4:43:15 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#254406: Apr 1st 2021 at 3:33:50 PM

[up][up][up]Go Nagai.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#254407: Apr 1st 2021 at 3:42:33 PM

Papyru, where should he go on the tree?

Mir: Ah, right, Cutie Honey and Devilman.

EDIT: Papyru, please add to the Drafts. Is the American title Detective Conan or Case Closed?

Edited by ACW on Apr 1st 2021 at 6:45:03 AM

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#254408: Apr 1st 2021 at 3:46:48 PM

The American title is Case Closed since they didn't want legal trouble with Conan the Barbarian.

Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Gotta love Jaws!
#254409: Apr 1st 2021 at 4:13:39 PM

I saw the Snyder cut. Darkseid is probably a [tup] from my memory but it's also not a good idea to ask me to expand because ho boy I watched it when I was tired and it's 4 hours so I may very well be misremembering.

Not sure if I'd support Steppenwolf though.

"For a second there, I mistook ya for a threat... but you're just a dirty little man!"
TellAll111 Since: Jun, 2010
#254410: Apr 1st 2021 at 4:21:38 PM

[tup] to Rutford, Ahmed, Eigerman and Lilith.

Abstain on Darkseid.

DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
#254411: Apr 1st 2021 at 4:39:04 PM

[tup] to Rawhead Rex, Ozymandias, Gray Fly, Cooler, Dr. Sarkisian, Lord Rutferd, Ahmed, Captain Eigerman, Lilith, the merged Doctor image, the Cooler quote, and the Gharnef the Dark Pontifex rewrite.

[tdown] to all of the Judge Turpin quotes (none of them sound heinous enough to me, unfortunately).

As for King, FriedWarthog brought up good counterarguments and reading off the trop page, it sounds like he's just a Psycho Supporter for the Knight and doesn't have anything truly redeeming, so keep him.

@xie23: That specification in the entry works for me too.

@Michealthehero21: I was planning to go through that Avengers DLC (forgot to put my name on the reservations and work has backed up my plans to play it).

Edited by DrUnknown on Apr 1st 2021 at 4:39:14 AM

Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#254412: Apr 1st 2021 at 4:41:17 PM

[up] Ok, looking forward to what you have to say about it.

Shadao Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins. (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Dorzma Forever! Artwork by Kris Dobbins.
#254413: Apr 1st 2021 at 4:56:26 PM

Based on the clips I've seen with Darkseid, he is an easy keeper just by the Bad Future scenes and how he treats Steppenwolf, but we'll need a better EP than this.

Snoketrope Barb / Temporary Kylo from California Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Waiting for Prince Charming
Barb / Temporary Kylo
#254414: Apr 1st 2021 at 5:20:01 PM

Steppenwolf?

I don't think he counts at all, I've seen the Snyder Cut, It plays his desire to get back in Darkseids graces is played much differently in that version then the 2017 one, it's played as him being desperate to return to his home and Accepted by his family again.

[tup] to Cooler, great Job rav!, Its kind of weird. A fairly well known charachter going years deemed a Non keep finally getting up.

Bow to the Prototype
Amanofmanyinterests Gotta love Jaws! Since: Oct, 2020 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#254416: Apr 1st 2021 at 5:27:47 PM

[up][up] Yeah, I was also going to bring that up if he got EP'd. Snyder Cut!Steppenwolf is a much more sympathetic villain, doing what he does just so he can come home, and having to deal with Desead's relentless mockery and cruelty. While he might not be a CM this time around, he is, however, a much more interesting and badass villain in the Snyder Cut.

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#254417: Apr 1st 2021 at 5:34:42 PM

You know since I also saw the Snyder Cut I could do the EP on Darkseid. I probably won't be able to do it tomorrow since I'll be going to the Everglades but I can do it afterwards especially since I definitely think that he counts (unless emperors or someone else really wants to do Darkseid).

Oh emperors is going to try again. Well then of course I'll wait for his 2nd try at Darkseid's EP before I do anything

Edited by G-Editor on Apr 1st 2021 at 9:14:01 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#254418: Apr 1st 2021 at 5:38:28 PM

Guys, emperors is already working on it, let's be patient and wait for him to get it done.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#254419: Apr 1st 2021 at 5:42:30 PM

I mean emperors already said he was on it. Can we please be a bit patient and give him some time?

Edited by Bullman on Apr 1st 2021 at 7:44:03 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#254420: Apr 1st 2021 at 6:09:29 PM

Yeah, let's be patient and wait for Emperors to finish the EP.

Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#254421: Apr 1st 2021 at 6:28:44 PM

There's a organization mistake on the Fire Emblem page, if its to ok to mention it?

Fates is grouped with Archanea, Valentia and Jugdral but even the DLC with Awakening characters arriving into the game establishes Fates continent and setting is a different world they were magically transported to. It also implies the Fates versions of the Awakening characters might from a different timeline.

On a related note, whilst Awakening can stay in the Archanea, Valentia and Jugdral section of the Monster page, its relation to Archanea does employ some Broad Strokes due to a decade long Sequel Gap and none of the original writers returning.

Basically move Fates to its own section rather then the Archanea, Valentia and Jugdral section.

Mario1995 The Dishonorable from Atlanta Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
The Dishonorable
#254422: Apr 1st 2021 at 6:45:14 PM

Abstaining on Darkseid. Not enough screen time in ZSJL to make a definitive decision (yes, there was that bad future where he presumably killed Lois and turned Superman evil, but whether or not that actually happens remains dubious).

Edited by Mario1995 on Apr 1st 2021 at 9:46:26 AM

"The devil's got all the good gear. What's God got? The Inspiral Carpets and nuns. Fuck that." - Liam Gallagher
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#254423: Apr 1st 2021 at 6:52:20 PM

I'm waiting for a more conclusive effortpost.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Apr 1st 2021 at 9:52:28 AM

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#254424: Apr 1st 2021 at 7:01:07 PM

Yeah guys, please just be patient and emperors do his work.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#254425: Apr 1st 2021 at 7:24:46 PM

[tup] Cooler, original!Odin, Sarkisian, Rutford, Ahmed, Eigerman and Lilith

Waiting for more detail on Darkseid


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