TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Go To

During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#252576: Mar 18th 2021 at 12:45:40 PM

[tup]Mirage.

Why so serious?
CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#252578: Mar 18th 2021 at 12:51:17 PM

Yes to Mirage. I kinda noticed that quite a lot of characters, who few years ago were thought as "No Go" are now getting rechecked to see that most of them actually are a solid keepers.

Edited by VeryVileVillian on Mar 18th 2021 at 11:01:53 AM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#252581: Mar 18th 2021 at 12:57:54 PM

[up][up][up] Yeah I did asked a while back if there was any keepers in the Aladdin cartoon and Austin DR once said there wasn't any.

Edited by Powermaster201 on Mar 18th 2021 at 4:11:37 AM

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#252582: Mar 18th 2021 at 12:59:08 PM

[tup] to Mirage

IIRC the Seedeater was a no characterization thing

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#252584: Mar 18th 2021 at 1:12:44 PM

[tup]Mirage

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
IniuriaTalis Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: Love, football, the arts, the occasional pint
#252585: Mar 18th 2021 at 1:18:07 PM

Alright, it's been two weeks so I'm finally getting to the candidate I mentioned. Bear with me here, because this is a nonlinear Kudzu Plot with many alternate timelines, so I'm going to try to make it as simple as I can.

What is the work?

Gnosia is a single player Social Deduction Game ala Werewolf. The player must go through multiple time loops while trapped on a refugee ship in which some crew members are infected with Gnosia, a hate plague that drives people to murder via Cessation of Existence under the belief they're sending people to heaven. The crew holds debates wherein the player either tries to help find those infected to put them into "cold sleep", or as Gnosia try to kill off the crew while avoiding detection. As this goes on, each loop has different people in different roles, and the player and their partner Setsu must try to figure out the mystery of the Gnosia and the time looping, and figure out how to escape.

Who is the candidate?

The sadistic hedonist Manan's early life is unknown, other than her main desires: to live forever, and enjoy herself as much as possible. In this setting, eternal life is typically achieved through digitizing one's personality, but Manan chose a different tact: using a secret illegal technology, she purposefully conceived children in order to let them grow to adulthood and then upload herself into their minds. She ends up having them grown in pods so that they'll have less personality development and be easier to control, as she must actively suppress them to keep their minds. Her latest daughter, SQ, is the 511th child she did this to, and when SQ describes the fragments of her mother's mind, all she can say is that Manan's memories are "gory."

However, eternal life is only half of Manan's desires, and pleasure is the other. To achieve that, her method of choice is the taking of sex slaves. Her main victim, Remnan, describes being forced to wear a collar that prevented him from moving without Manan's permission, and facing harsh punishments for displeasing her while she kept him as a "pet." While the word rape is never used, the fact that in the timeline of the game he is terrified of any hint of sexuality and that she taunts him about potentially having fathered her child leave pretty much no ambiguity. Eventually Remnan escapes, but Manan has become obsessed with him and has been chasing him for a while when she tries to transfer herself into her latest daughter SQ.

Here's where the timeline weirdness comes into play: whether Manan succeeds in hijacking SQ depends on whether it's a timeline where SQ comes into contact with Gnosia. Because of this, while almost everyone else either keeps their personality or reveals Hidden Depths as Gnosia, Manan/SQ stands out for her gleeful sadism. If she wins a round as Gnosia, she can potentially either force Remnan or the player back into being her "pet" after killing every other human. If caught early after trying (and failing) to charm Remnan with her new body, she'll use her last words before being frozen to taunt him about the fact that SQ could be his biological daughter, which triggers a breakdown that is heavily implied to end in his suicide.

Eventually, the player's partner Setsu devises a way to save a Gnosial SQ from her mother. They give Manan a choice: either go into cold sleep and be left there, or transfer her consciousness into a humanoid doll and start going through the time loops herself. As the latter is a form of immortality, Manan chooses that. Going back in time, she and the original doll are found by the ship's captain Jonas who sees her sentience as a miracle and takes her aboard, naming her Kukruschka. As Kukruschka, Manan mainly serves as a normal crewmate, with a few exceptions. The first is that in gameplay she is hard-coded to lie and play innocent, even teaching the player the "Regret" skill that lets you hide guilt behind crocodile tears. The second is that unlike the player and Setsu, she treats the whole thing as a game, with Gina even noting that she seems to be happy to enjoy life and doesn't seem saddened by her companions' deaths. And the third is that in a couple of loops, she'll outright break the game's rules to commit extra murders. The first is as a Gnosia, where after being caught she'll transfer her mind to another doll to kill Setsu and the player outside of the normal Gnosia methods. The second and most noteworthy, however, happens when she's not Gnosia at all: if Kukruschka/Manan and Remnan are both able to immediately prove their uninfected, she'll convince the rest of the cast to voluntarily go into cold sleep and leave the two of them to take care of the ship. After having Remnan to herself, she proceeds to systematically murder everyone at rest so that she can have him all to herself.

Heinousness standard:

Very easily passes. The universe can be destroyed, but it's treated as more of a cleaning of the slate than a crime, and happens either by accident or just because a "Bugged" character exists and nobody gives it much comment. Every other murder in the story either involves an Asshole Victim or has the person under the guilt-suppressing Gnosia effect, and In-Universe Manan's willingness to sacrifice her own children and her abuse of Remnan are treated as horrifying even to the most jaded or charitable characters. Even as a Gnosia, she stands out for her sadism and proclivities for sexual violence (which is stated to be unrelated to the virus, as besides the drive to murder it simply has a tendency to make people show What You Are in the Dark).

Mitigating factors:

Here's where the timeline iffiness really comes into play. While there is absolutely nothing in her favor as Manan or Gnosia SQ, she spends most of her time as Kukrushka simply going through the loops like all the other characters and is stated to be only trying to enjoy herself, only committing two major crimes. As every looping character goes through the loops in different orders, it is therefore possible that those crimes happened early and that she ends up mellowing out. Given that her lying and hiding her personality to seem innocent is literally a feature of the gameplay and her noted lack of care for others, I do not personally subscribe to that view.

The verdict:

I personally think she qualifies, but I also understand why her general passivity as Kukrushka might make someone believe otherwise.

Does anyone actually read these?
MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#252586: Mar 18th 2021 at 1:24:02 PM

Having played and beaten the game in question, her passiveness is likely just an act. That’s not what has me iffy.

While her behavior indicates she was a terrible person, and she does commit quite a bit of crimes, the fact that, in the true ending, she and Setsu are able to come to an understanding and mutual benefit kinda kills her chances- a true CM would refuse the deal and attempt to kill the heroes regardless. Not to mention how Manan-in-Kukrushka's body genuinely smiles at the player just before leaving to another universe, after Setsu says that they will be glad to see her again. Because of that, she seems like a near-miss to me, so I am sadly gonna have to give a [tdown], disappointing as that is.

Here is a video showing the ending, by the way: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4eiFrMR_gtA

Edited by MasterN on Mar 18th 2021 at 1:27:54 AM

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#252587: Mar 18th 2021 at 1:25:46 PM

Abstain on Manan.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#252588: Mar 18th 2021 at 1:26:06 PM

Manan sounds like an easy yes. I'm not at all inclined to view her being "passive" under the alternate identity of Kukrushka as mitigating given she seems to snap back to being just as evil as ever with enough prompt on certain routes.

EDIT: Abstaining until someone clears up MasterN's comment.

Edited by Scraggle on Mar 18th 2021 at 2:26:39 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#252590: Mar 18th 2021 at 1:32:44 PM

The exact quote is that Setsu says to Manan that, when they meet, “it’ll be under better circumstances”.

Setsu: At some point, you’ll see us again. I don’t know when that will be for you. It could be several decades, or several centuries, later. But when we meet again... Heh, it’ll be under better conditions.”
“(Hearing this, Kukrushka... simply smiles, quietly.)”

That is as clear a Pet the Dog/redeeming moment as I can see.

Edited by MasterN on Mar 18th 2021 at 1:37:26 AM

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#252591: Mar 18th 2021 at 1:33:24 PM

What's The Work

I, Frankenstein is a live-action is a Sci-Fi Fantasy movie made in 2014 directed by Stuart Beattie which was also based on a graphic novel series created by Kevin Grevioux. The film takes place in modern times where the The Legion of Hell and Divinely Created Gargoyles fight for the fate of the human race. Frankenstein's Monster, named Adam in this movie, happens to get himself involved in this when one of the demon Princes sends his minions to find him and use him for his evil plans.

Who Is The Villain

Prince Naberius, going by the name Charles Wessex, is the film's main antagonist, a Demon Prince of Hell, and the leader of the demons on Earth. Naberius seeks to find Frankenstein's monster and/or his book to try to recreate what Dr. Victor Frankenstein has made in order to Take Over the World and subjugate the human race, or eradicate them.

What Did He Do

Over the centuries, Naberius has been gathering tens of thousands of human corpses to have his minion conduct experiments on them, planning to summon the Legion of Hell and have them possessed the reanimated bodies so he could continue his plan to take over the world. In the modern-day he disguises himself as a businessman, having his human scientist experiment on a dead rat, which successfully got resurrected. When one of his demons arrived to inform him that they found Adam/Frankenstein's monster, but Naberius punches him in the face for assuming what he wanted.

He then orders his minions to attack the Cathedral, killing 16 Gargoyles as a result of the attack. Later on in the film, he finds Victor Frankenstein's book on how to reanimate the dead, forcing one of his human scientists to begin the process. When she refused, he killed the other human scientist by snapping his neck, since that one was no longer useful. He forces her to comply with his scheme and test on the other dead scientist's corpse. His plan almost came to furnished, as he began summoning the armies of Hell itself to possess the 10,000 corpses and become part of his new army. We do hear the dead bodies scream in pain when they get reanimated and later possessed by each demon from Hell.

He later attempts to kill the other scientist when she was no longer useful to his plan. He then beats Adam and tries to have him possessed along with the other reanimated corpses. However, Naberius soon realized that Adam does have a soul (in this movie, demons cannot possess bodies with a soul which is why he uses the dead corpses) and was killed, sending his soul back to the depths of hell.

Mitigating Factor

None, Naberius despises humans and Gargoyles and seeks to eradicate them and take over the entire world. He doesn't care for his fellow demons, since while he doesn't kill them it was merely for pragmatic reasons since there are only 666 of them left on Earth. There's no moral agency issue with him either since nothing implies he can't tell between right and wrong.

Heinous Standards

No issues, since the other villains barely do anything as bad as him. Dr. Frankenstein attempted to kill his creation, but Adam murdered his wife in revenge but he had somewhat understandable reasons too. The other Gargoyles aren't saints themselves as they once attempted to kill Adam since they see him as a threat, but they have good intentions and don't d anything remotely bad.

Naberius however, has taken thousands of human corpses solely to make an army of reanimated demons take over the world and seeking the demise of the human race. Having also sent his minions to kill over 16 Gargoyles and murdered one of his human scientists since he was no longer useful to him. Also, when the corpses we getting reanimated and possessed by demons, we hear them screaming in pain when it was happening.

Final Verdict

Up to you.

Edited by Powermaster201 on Mar 18th 2021 at 4:35:52 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#252592: Mar 18th 2021 at 1:37:50 PM

I feel we've discussed this dude before?

I remember him being brought up to me.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#252593: Mar 18th 2021 at 1:38:23 PM

Ordeaux and I checked, he wasn't brought up.

Edited by Powermaster201 on Mar 18th 2021 at 4:39:28 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#252594: Mar 18th 2021 at 1:40:40 PM

Naberius doesn't count... he comes close but there's no evidence he was killing to make up the corpses that account for his army. His plot is left as a generic Take Over the World without that.

No to the other one as well per N's comment.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#252595: Mar 18th 2021 at 1:41:35 PM

I've blotted most of this memory out of my mind but I distinctly recall leaving the theatre with the impression that he didn't count. I'm not really sure how much weight his Hell on Earth plan is given and the "use a bunch of human corpses as vessels for my army" isn't near as heinous as it could be as there's no indication at all Naberius killed any of the people he's using as hosts. The corpses screaming when they're possessed is, if anything, just another one of those weird, nonsense "stylistic effects" that make I, Frankenstein such an incomprehensible piece of shit.

I might need to rewatch, but I don't remember Naberius really being presented as bad enough for a powerful demon lord beyond a token Kick the Dog moment and his end goal, which itself isn't really being portrayed as full-on Hell on Earth.

Edited by Scraggle on Mar 18th 2021 at 2:42:14 AM

Powermaster201 The Emperor of Evil! Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
The Emperor of Evil!
#252596: Mar 18th 2021 at 1:42:04 PM

[up][up] I never mentioned he killed those people to gain corpses, I only mentioned he gathered them

Edited by Powermaster201 on Mar 18th 2021 at 4:42:16 AM

IniuriaTalis Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: Love, football, the arts, the occasional pint
#252597: Mar 18th 2021 at 1:42:08 PM

The thing with Manan in the true end is that while it is the last loop for the player and Setsu, it is actually the first loop for Manan. So, chronologically, she does go on to murder them despite smiling there. Also, it wasn't like she had a choice in becoming Kukruschka: it was either go into cold sleep, and therefore likely either die are spend the rest of eternity and stasis, or take the chance of immortality. Setsu even states that nobody will shed a tear if Manan ends up dying instead.

Edited by IniuriaTalis on Mar 18th 2021 at 4:44:33 AM

Does anyone actually read these?
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#252598: Mar 18th 2021 at 1:43:37 PM

I'm not questioning your honesty, merely stating why I don't feel he counts, I've talked this one through with a few people now.

@ Sraggle, You're right, I watched it after you mentioned not recalling the depth and he's about as generic as a demon lord can get imo.

Edited by 43110 on Mar 18th 2021 at 4:44:23 AM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#252599: Mar 18th 2021 at 1:44:25 PM

I don't really see how he is a generic Take Over the World considering he killed 16 gargoyles and attempted to enslave humanity.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#252600: Mar 18th 2021 at 1:49:00 PM

He has:

  • Killing 16 Gargoyles;
  • Murdering a scientist;
  • Trying to kill the heroes;
  • Using a demon army to try to conquer the planet

Does he have a huge monologue about how he'll start culling humanity and having them devoured at leisure by his kin or worked to death I'm forgetting about? I seriously do not recall the depth of villainy that's being attributed here.

He's a demon prince with servants and later army at his beck and call, if I'm to change my vote I'm expecting quite a bit from him.

Edited by 43110 on Mar 18th 2021 at 4:50:31 AM


Total posts: 326,048
Top