During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
to Pablo Reyes, the Mutant Master, Senator Davies, the Shang Tsung rewrite, Shao Kahn rewrite, Shinnok rewrite, and President Vargas.
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Another keeper besides Darkseid?
Lighty, your thoughts on the MK rewrites? You did the originals.
And actually, one thing that may work is to do like Kurgan's entry for Highlander:
- Character name appearances : Entry.
Edited by ACW on Mar 13th 2021 at 1:59:00 PM
Oh, yes you did say that
Yeah, Darkseid was put up late 2017. And yes there were the jokes about him killing Ravok
Also, looking back
...good lord it looks like the old Marvel page was a mess.
To get them out of the way:
Secret Service: Ultimate Sacrifice:
President Geraldo Deldago Vargas is the vile leader of Costa Sentava, who took control of the country by overthrowing the previous President in a military coup. Starting off his tyranical rule by opressing his own people, Vargas used the deadly CVX gas to horrifically slaughter the resistance to his rule, having over a 100 people killed in a single attack. Hating the US, Vargas orchestrates the series of terrorist attacks upon his own people, not caring when his own aunt got killed in one of them, to frame the americans for them and convince the people of Costa Sentava to join his cause. Using Senator Davies to smuggle CVX bombs into the capital building, Vargas hoped to destroy the entire D.C., solely to kill off the President of the US and take over America, wanting to make it "the second Sentava".
Senator Davies is a treacherous member of the "inner circle", who decided to betray his country by joining Vargas' scheme. Assisting Vargas in organizing the attacks upon people of Costa Sentava to make them join Vargas' attack on the US, Davies helped Vargas' men to smuggle CVX bombs into the capital building, which threatened to wipe out the entire D.C. When Agent Pierce foiled their attempts to kill the President elect, Davies took the President elect hostage and tried to force Pierce to let him escape by threatening to detonate CVX grenade, which would kill over a thousand of innocent people, including his own men.
Alright, it's been two weeks, so as promised, I'm gonna talk about Kingdom Hearts Union X, which just had a revelation that COULD potentially change how we judge candidates from the franchise. And before any of you ask, yes, Union X, despite being a mobile game, is 100% canon.
So, anyone here who's familiar with Kingdom Hearts knows about Light and Darkness, with Darkness being the main force wielded by Heartless, Nobodies, villains, Nightmares, etc. Many villains including Xehanort and Maleficent have been seekers or followers of the Darkness; but up until now it's just been typical "dark energy", standard stuff.
Union X has introduced us to the Greater-Scope Villain of the entire franchise, far surpassing even Xehanort. Darkness is a sentient being, although very few actually know about this. Literally every evil action carried out in the series has been a result of either the Darkness promising power or possessing people to do its bidding. Yes, there are those who willingly seek the Darkness, like Xehanort or Maleficent, but they don't realize that it's a sentient being and don't qualify for their own separate reasons. So with many Kingdom Hearts villains, their status as a willing seeker or a possessed puppet is thrown into question. Not to mention, since the Darkness has literally every crime in the franchise under its belt, whether directly or indirectly, the heinous standard has skyrocketed. Granted not every villain is a reality-warping Eldritch Abomination, but it's hard to top the direct or indirect manipulation of every evil action in your franchise.
Additionally, the Darkness cannot qualify. Despite being sentient, capable of intelligent speech, and actually quite civil when it wants to be, to call it "evil" is not entirely true. It states that it is "old friends" with the Master of Masters, and when asked which side its on, it responds with "I am not on any side, I simply am." Throw in that it's literally called "the Darkness" and the only thing it cannot understand/is repulsed by is entirely pure Hearts (like the Seven Princesses of Heart), and moral agency is a clear disqualifier.
TL;DR: The Darkness from Kingdom Hearts is a sentient force that is pretty much the one behind everything, manipulates or even possesses other beings to be villains, and cannot qualify itself due to moral agency issues.
Read Slender Man vs Siren Head 2: The Foundation hereSo basically there is a Greater-Scope Villain that is behind everything and raises the heinous standard so high nobody can compete with him but can't qualify himself due to other issues he has.
Well, let's put it this way: the only way a villain from Kingdom Hearts can qualify is if:
- They meet all the usual CM criteria
- They confirm with 100% certainty that they are a WILLING follower/seeker, and not possessed.
Xehanort, being a willing seeker, COULD have been able to qualify still IF he had not failed step 1, since he would have been acting of his own accord and his actions would have been extreme enough given his resources (to contrast the nigh-omnipotence of the Darkness).
Edited by SumDumNerd on Mar 13th 2021 at 12:05:45 PM
Read Slender Man vs Siren Head 2: The Foundation hereGod, just euthanize the KH fan in me already.
... I promise that's all I'm going to say about this matter.
Edited by erazor0707 on Mar 13th 2021 at 3:09:16 PM
Don't worry guys, we already have The Darkness up.
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Mar 13th 2021 at 12:11:37 PM
So the darkness within darkness was Darkness.
OKAY. -___-
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.![]()
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Again, if they can confirm that they are not possessed/manipulated as well as meet the usual criteria, then they have a chance to qualify. I don't think any of the Disney Villains hit the criteria, and only a select few have any confirmation as to their willingness (i.e. Union X confirms Maleficent is willing; she is not possessed or manipulated and is acting of her own free will. However, she doesn't meet the heinous standard, doesn't do enough, and has moments of genuine sincerity, so she can't qualify).
However, given the fact that all villains in KH either don't meet basic criteria OR cannot confirm their willing participation, that changes how we judge them in the future.
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Yeah, the sister mobile game, Kingdom Hearts Dark Road, is Xehanort's freaking BACKSTORY. A LOT of major info is in the mobile games. I would actually recommend them (they're pretty fun) if they weren't shutting down next month and only leaving the cutscenes behind.
It's discussed between the Master of Masters and Luxu, when the Master of Masters explains that the Darkness is the foe that all Keyblade wielders have been fighting the entire time.
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Well, there isn't any reason NOT to draw the conclusion that the shapeshifting shadow being named "Darkness" that possesses/manipulates people and fights the Light ISN'T the same Darkness covered through most of the series. If it weren't, now THAT would be a mind-f*ck supreme.
Edited by SumDumNerd on Mar 13th 2021 at 12:37:09 PM
Read Slender Man vs Siren Head 2: The Foundation here![]()
Wait, is there any other evidence? Cause the current confirmation is coming from The Master of Masters, and he's, well, The Master of Masters.
Good point.
Edited by DoodSlayer136 on Mar 13th 2021 at 12:39:04 PM
