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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#251076: Mar 7th 2021 at 8:29:13 PM

I'll reserve judgment until Scarecrow gets a formal EP.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#251077: Mar 7th 2021 at 8:39:44 PM

[up]Seems appropriate.

Anybody reserve the third Ant-Man movie yet?

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#251078: Mar 7th 2021 at 8:39:57 PM

[tup] Stanley, Haman, Kingsley and Adam

[tdown] Schlatt, Scarecrow and Charlie

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#251079: Mar 7th 2021 at 8:42:58 PM

[up][up] Going off of the discussion dates page, I think you're good to go on that, future.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#251080: Mar 7th 2021 at 9:30:23 PM

Consider it reserved then. On both accounts.

@Imperial I thought we were doing it the same way we did Syndrome nearly two years ago. Guess not though.

I’ll let the other thread know too.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Mar 7th 2021 at 9:35:34 AM

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#251081: Mar 7th 2021 at 9:53:49 PM

Hey so I was browsing some pages and came across two write ups that I think need some work. They're from Samurai Sentai Shinkenger

  • Complete Monster:
    • Sujigarano Akumaro shows that a villain can take a show to even darker levels even if it was already fairly dark to begin with. The Gedōshū at large wanted to create enough anguish to cause the Sanzu River to rise high enough to flood the world of the living, thus enabling their incursion thereof. Akumaro, on the other hand, wanted to open a portal to Hell because he wanted to enjoy absolute human suffering—even though said opening would destroy both the human world and the Sanzu River. He also made Fuwa Juzo's sword from Juzo's dead parents, whom he murdered himself. His monstrosity extends to even the Ayakashi who serve under him; they seem specifically made to cause as much suffering as possible in order to further his goal, which was to use the suffering of people as a wedge into one of six precise points along a line, at the center of which was a portal to Hell.
    • Fuwa Juzo was a remorseless Blood Knight to the point that even his fellow Gedōshū wouldn't trust him; he even only became a Gedōshū in the first place so that he could keep killing in spite of his sickness. Akumaro saw potential in him for his ability to walk the line between humanity and the Gedōshū and sought to use him to open the gates of Hell. However, he throws a sharp wrench into the plan, declaring that he already knew that his sword made by Akumaro was made of his parents—a fact which Akumaro had recently told him to bring him to a Despair Event Horizon—and that he didn't care.

The first one just needs a rewrite but Juzo I'm not sure what to do with. My research only really shows that he attacked Akumaro to ruin his plans, was willing to kill someone named Jii and trying to turn the hero Takeru into a Gedoshu. I can't find an EP for either but Lighty and some others have vouched for Juzo counting but I'd like for someone more familiar with the series to help with Juzo.

DrUnknown Since: May, 2020
#251082: Mar 7th 2021 at 9:56:51 PM

[tup] to the Luca Blight image (sorry for missing it the first time around), Haman, Peter Kingsley, and Adam Taurus. I'll also give a more tentative one to Stanley Goodfellow.

[tdown] to Charlie Magwood. Cut Jschlatt and I'll lean on [tdown] Dr. Jonathan Crane/Scarecrow, as I agree witht he arguments that he is outheinoussed and doesn't do a whole lot as The Dragon.

@miraculous: Understandable. Good luck with those modules.

[up] Not familiar with the series, so I'll wait to see if anyone is knowledgeable on it before I try to handle it myself. Sorry.

[down] Oh, okay. Sorry for misinterpreting the discussion and thank you for pointing that out.

Edited by DrUnknown on Mar 7th 2021 at 10:12:36 AM

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#251083: Mar 7th 2021 at 9:59:29 PM

[up]We're not actually voting to keep or cut any version of Scarecrow we're debating if the film version should go up since novelization is already up.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#251084: Mar 7th 2021 at 10:19:24 PM

I'll help with Juzo, what do we need, Papyru?

LordYAM Since: Jan, 2015
#251085: Mar 7th 2021 at 10:21:15 PM

[tup] Kingsley. I find it darkly funny that 24 (a show that's accused of being conservative propaganda) has a villain who's essentially trying to engineer a war in the middle east just to make money....at the exact same time the US was entering Iraq for pretty much that reason.

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#251086: Mar 7th 2021 at 10:21:44 PM

'Yes' to Kingsley

Ok, officially chiming in on Film!Crane? I don't think he Keeps nor is really worth discussion. The novelization one is explictly worse in several ways, and unlike in the novelizations? There is zero actual, verifiable proof that Crane is completely happy to see Gotham destroyed, IIRC. The film never really refutes the belief that Crane thought they were just going to ransom the city after gassing it, and by the time he's riding a horse through the city enjoying the chaos, he's quite obviously not in a particularly proper state of mind. By the time we meet him in the next film he's just a drug dealer who—unlike in the novelization—doesn't have any onscreen victims. The novelization one also has a far worse backstory.

There would be literally zero point to putting up film Crane even if he slightly squeaked by because he's so much worse in the novels that listing his film one who has little differences except not being as bad would seem pointless. So no, I don't think this is a Syndrome case, and I don't see any point in anyone actually effortposting the character. If they want to, go right ahead, but I'll be a 'No'.

Edited by Ravok on Mar 7th 2021 at 10:24:01 AM

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#251087: Mar 7th 2021 at 10:22:57 PM

All I need is either an list of his actions so I can do a rewrite that covers them, or you can rewrite him if you like.

[up]Thanks for the input, no to film scarecrow

Edited by papyru30 on Mar 7th 2021 at 11:24:50 AM

Ordeaux26 Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#251089: Mar 7th 2021 at 10:24:42 PM

He'd need to be EP'd before such a decision is made, as like Ravok, I'm staunchly against listing the film version.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#251090: Mar 7th 2021 at 10:33:36 PM

Juzo? Became a Gedoshou solely to keep fighting and killing, which he has done for ages. After a great deal of time seeming like a kindly ally, it turns out he's a sadistic murderer who opens the gates to hell, uncaring if the world is destroyed and forces the hero into a duel to satisfy his lust for combat, showing his 'honor' is nothing but a farce as said hero is already injured and tired.

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#251091: Mar 7th 2021 at 10:38:40 PM

Thanks for clarification, doesn't he end up ruining the plan to open the gate to hell by attacking Akumaro? I know it isn't redeeming I'd just like some clarification on why he did it and how culpable each of them are.

Also can I get a bit of expansion on Akumaro's Bad Boss tendencies, the write up doesn't explain it very well.

Edited by papyru30 on Mar 7th 2021 at 11:41:40 AM

randomtroper89 from The Fire Nation Since: Nov, 2010
#251092: Mar 7th 2021 at 10:42:37 PM

I know that we would sometimes discuss poorly written CMs on this thread but it might be useful to do it officaly for the sake of SoYouWantTo.Write A Complete Monster

Right now the header for The Greats and Treat With Caution are currently blank.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#251093: Mar 7th 2021 at 10:52:46 PM

Erm...I forgot Akumaro a bit, but he's into using, killing, sacrificing minions.

For Juzo? Yes, initially...but then he turns on the heroes and opens the gates anyways.

DrScavenge27 Since: Jul, 2020
#251094: Mar 7th 2021 at 10:53:53 PM

[tup] to Haman, Stanley and Taurus (Yay! I knew the day would come when we had another version of Adam Taurus that is CM! Sorry. Sometimes I can be a little childish.).

RobertTYL Since: Oct, 2019 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
#251095: Mar 7th 2021 at 11:43:29 PM

[tup] Kingsley, Taurus...

…they've announced a third Ant Man movie? Wow, I didn't know that, but awesome cool I mean, my mom is a huge Paul Rudd fan, I'll let her know

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#251096: Mar 8th 2021 at 12:07:45 AM

OK here's my best shot at a rewrite based on all of the information I have gleaned from the conversation and some wiki diving. Lighty, feel free to make any changes you feel are necessary.

  • Sujigarano Akumaro stands out among the Gedōshū as one of the darkest threats to humanity. Using his own Ayakashi to spread misery at several locations, going so far as to kill them for his own ends. Akumaro plans to rip open a portal to Hell, which would destroy both Earth and the Sanzu River, just so he can enjoy human suffering. To achieve this goal, Akumaro murdered Fuwa Juzo's parents and created his sword Uramasa from their souls, cruely revealing this to Juzo in an attempt to make him open the portal to hell.
  • Fuwa Juzo is a remorseless Gedōshū who hides his monstrous personality under a friendly façade. In the past, Juzo was a bloodthirsty swordsman, willingly becoming a Gedōshū to continue killing when he fell ill. Becoming fixated on Takeru Shiba as his desired opponent, Juzo betrays his master Dokoku to keep Takeru alive so they can battle on another. When Akumaro reveals that his sword was created from the souls of his parents, Juzo revealed that he already knew and didn't care and attacks Akumaro. Juzo then opens the gates to Hell, uncaring of the destruction this would cause, forces a tired and injured Takeru to battle him and attempts to goad him into becoming a Gedōshū so their battle can continue forever.

LordYAM Since: Jan, 2015
#251097: Mar 8th 2021 at 1:10:08 AM

Okay, I've got another character from RWBY fanfic. Warning this is a long post

What is the Work

Destiny of Remnant is a RWBY fanfic that was made by UGX 7. It started out because the author hated Pyrrha dying and wanted to bring her back. To his credit the story itself is actually fairly good even if it is rough in places but that's besides the point. One of the big changes is that Salem's organization has been expanded into a full Evil League of Evil, consisting of two other maiden candidates (Salem was the Winter Maiden in this version of the story before she fell to the dark side), an army of mad scientists, Hazel, Tyrian, numerous crime lords and the Grimm Commanders, hybrids who control a type of Grimm (the Beowolves are controlled by a guy named Steppenwolfe, and the flying nevermores commanded by Ziz.) It is one of these guy's who I'm suggesting.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

Norvik the Hunter, the sixth Grimm Hybrid and an all around nasty piece of work (he's based on the Gemini Killer from Exorcist III, with all THAT implies).

Norvik got his start as a Janitor for the Schnee Dust Company. After a bad day a waitress took pity on him, and something inside him snapped. He brutally murdered the woman, but feeling guilt he confessed to a holy man. When he realized the guy was going to turn him into the cops he murdered the holy man to via decapitation.

He found that he was FASCINATED by the Grimm, the implication being that he admired their savagery and brutal nature. So he took it upon himself to protect the Grimm, which he did by wiping out Huntsmen teams; his MO involved forcing the Leaders to watch their teammates get die horribly (usually via some form of dismemberment; two confirmed examples involve eating the heart of Ozpin's love interest and placing a rat inside another guy so that the rat would eat him from the inside out) before he killed them. In addition, his semblance was the power to absorb souls, allowing him to continue feeding on their agonized souls for years (at one point the souls are released and they number AT LEAST four dozen, with most of them having been there for decades.)

Eventually he lured Ozpin's Team (WZRD) in with a fake distress signal and then knocked them out with a gas grenade. He then very gorily killed three of them, with Ozpin narrowly escaping to get help as he murdered Rouge Baton (who Ozpin is shown to have loved dearly.) Ozpin proceeded to lead a manhunt against Norvik that culminated in them clashing over an abandoned railway bridge. The fight saw Ozpin defeat him and sending him plummeting into the river below. Salem however saved his life since she saw him as a potential asset, keeping him locked away for the next 44 years.

Cut to the start of the story; Cinder, rather than killing Ozpin, teleports him away, where he's stored in a cell with Norvik. Norvik uses the opportunity to torment Ozpin by recounting his various crimes, even revealing that the souls of his teammates are still trapped within him. When Jaune Arc is captured Salem considers placing Norvik in his body if Juane can't be corrupted, and Norvik himself seems to relish in the prospect. When that plan is thwarted by the other heroes rescuing Jaune Ruby and Pyrrha (yeah she's alive in this story) Norvik uses the opportunity to escape, immediately murdering an unlucky guard before going after Ozpin, failing only because he tries to use a rebuilt Penny Polidena as a hostage (this works about as well as you'd expect). Ozpin's teammates fight from within, giving Ozpin the chance to mortally wound Norvik and free the souls trapped within.

Unfortunately Ozpin in his anger decides to leave Norvik to bleed to death rather than just shoot him, which allows Salem's forces to save him by transferring his consciousness into a Grimm Chimera. His first order of business? Eat his old body (much to the disgust of even the other Grimm Commanders.)

Norvik then puts his skills to use in the White Fang Arc. An increasing number of Faunus are questioning Adam's leadership, and so Adam's decided to get rid of them. To this end he's dispatched 66 known dissenters to an outpost in the desert where Norvik awaits. Norvik than slowly murders all 66 of the dissenters (usually via dismemberment of some kind), dragging out the process over more than a week just to torment them. His only regret is that he didn't get to kill the commander first, because that threw off how he usually did it. The footage and audio of Norvik's massacre is one of the things that the heroes use to turn Adam's followers against him, with most leaving in disgust when shown the footage juxtaposed with Adam's gloating.

After this Norvik doesn't really do anything until the Grimm launch their mass assault on Vacuo and Atlas. Norvik is assigned to attack Camp Independence, an Atlesian base on the outskirts of the capital. Norvik leads an entire horde of Grimm, wiping out countless soldiers (again via horrible dismemberment) and utterly reveling in the slaughter. Colonel Chamberlain (the base's commander) manages to turn the tide against the Grimm, and actually manages to injure Norvik with a Plasma Repeater. Norvik manages to chase Chamberlain down and when Chamberlain surprises him by bringing up his brother (as well as calling him by his full name) he starts to slowly torture the guy as punishment for defying him. At this point Salem (having accomplished her main objective) calls off the attack. Norvik reluctantly calls off his forces but tries to kill Chamberlain, who is mercifully saved when his subordinates bombard Norvik with enough firepower to make him retreat.

The story is still ongoing so until then this is all.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

First things first, the Grimm Commanders actually have a surprising amount of character depth. They're evil, but quite a few of them have tragic backstories and or redeeming qualities (Sheer Kaa, the leader of the Sabertooths has a sense of honor and serves Salem because he believes the world is broken and that by helping Salem he can create a world where true equality can be achieved. Mavis, the commander of the Aquatic Grimm turns on a few of the Grimm's pirate allies when they try to rape civilians because it reminds her of her past.) Norvik however was evil BEFORE he joined up, and everyone in Salem's organization (with the exception of Tyrian and Salem herself) is utterly terrified of the guy.

A few potential mitigating factors are brought up but pretty clearly subverted.

1.) By his own admission he felt guilt when he murdered his first victim, but also fascination. When talking about his second victim he's openly joyful, clearly relishing it. It's pretty clear that in the present he feels no regret for anything he's done.

2.) His stated reasons for killing Huntsmen are as follows

"The Grimm needed to be avenged. Grimm may have killed thousands of Hunters but you and your kind Ozpin have slaughtered millions of theirs and you continue to do so to this day. When I was young, whenever I saw a Grimm they would never attack me. They would attack others around me, but they always left me alone. I once saw a Huntsman slaughter an entire pack of Beowolves with such ferocity and force that I knew this was a sign, a sign that I must help them. Protect Grimm from Hunters no matter the cost. So I decided the best way was to kill Hunters before they graduated, before they could become the threats to the creatures of Grimm that they longed to be so much."

Given the sheer sadism with which he kills Hunters and the implication that he admires the Grimm for being savage killing machines, I'm don't think this is redeeming in the slightest. He also intentionally keeps quiet about Ozpin gathering his aura to escape since he wanted to kill Ozpin himself and knew alerting Salem would ruin his opportunity. He only refrains from killing Salem's minions because she threatens him with death and or something worse and Norvik realizes she has the power to back up those threats. If anything he's just using it as an excuse to engage in his natural bloodlust.

3.) During a confrontation it's mentioned that his father was abusive to him and his brother. When Colonel Chamberlain asks him "would your brother want this" Norvik is.......shocked but even that's heavily implied to be surprise that anyone even knew about his full name or his brother, and he's more annoyed that Chamberlain is trying to spite him in the face of death.

Still, here's the full exchange.

"Struggling to pry himself from the monster's forelimbs, Chamberlain instead put on a brave face and shouted, "I'm not afraid of you, Norvik Vannicutt! I know what happened to you! Would your brother want this?!"Norvick stopped. He was surprised by the mention of his full human name, since while many people know of his deeds and murderous acts, not many individuals actually knew his full human name or know about his brother. However, he was still rather annoyed with Chamberlain's attempt at bravery, trying to spite him even in the last few remaining seconds of the military officer's life. "Is that so? Then I'll make an example out of you right here and now, to prove that everyone should fear me! I'll so relish killing you nice and slow, human!" Norvik seethed angrily as he kept his right foreleg on Chamberlain's wounded midsection and lowered his head towards the Atlesian Colonel's legs."

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

First things first, Cinder and Salem do not count. Cinder's still a sociopath but is shown to be capable of loving other people. Adam meanwhile is an absolute bastard who I may write an effort post on (in addition to mutilating Faunus who disagree by cutting off their Faunus parts he also sets up the aformentioned outpost massacre and even contacts the survivors just to gloat before Norvik kills them), but has a Freudian Excuse that explains his actions, while Salem actually has a slight Pet the Dog moment at one point.

Salem's other minions also have impressive rap sheets (Cinder, Hazel, Watts and Tyrian all butchered an entire tribe save one child ten years prior to the story, the Grimm Commanders all take part in impressively violent acts such as the assault on Vacuo and Atlas, and one of Salem's crime bosses Garrett Odinson is heavily implied to have unleashed the Nucklavee on Kuroyari because two of his former minions who weren't on board with the "join Salem" plan, were hiding out there.) Everyone looks part in the assault on Vacuo and Atlas, causing a lot of death and destruction and in Cinder's case murdering the Winter Maiden so that Salem can claim her power.

Norvik however, I believe does meet the standard. Not only are the ways he murdered the huntsmen teams described in detail, the fact that he absorbs their souls and subjects them to agony for decades is a pretty unique crime even compared to what Salem's other minions accomplish. His long drawn out decimation of the white fang renegades is also described in detail via audio log and footage, and none of the other Grimm commanders display that level of sadism, usually going in for quick kills. As mentioned earlier, almost all of the other members of Salem's factions hate the guy and see him as revolting (the only exception being Tyrian and Salem herself.)

Final Verdict?

Absofuckinglutely.

Edited by LordYAM on Mar 8th 2021 at 1:17:11 AM

CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#251098: Mar 8th 2021 at 1:33:34 AM

[tup] to Stanley, Haman, Kingsley, Fanfic!Adam and Norvik. [tdown] Charlie, Film!Scarecrow and Jschlatt.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#251099: Mar 8th 2021 at 1:43:14 AM

I'm...actually leaning yes on Charlie. He has 4 deaths like Stanley, and the abuse of his brother pushes him into CM territory IMO.

Yes to Haman, Kingsley, Taurus.

Norvik...is his arc still ongoing? Also, anyway to trim that effortpost?

  • The Shore: Nyarlathotep is an Outer God who secretly desires to end all life across the galaxy. Bored with human life and repeatedly torturing sailors to the brick of insanity, Nyarlathotep decided to reshape the cosmos to better suit his desires. When Andrew crashes onto the titular shore and tries to look for his missing daughter, Ellie, Nyarlathotep offers to help him find her in exchange for assisting him with a few deeds. He manipulates Andrew into freeing Dagon and Cthulhu—the latter of whom opting to exterminate humanity for being disturbed—before convincing Andrew into handing over an artifact he powered up. Afterwards, Nyarlathotep successfully summons Azathoth and destroys various planets across the galaxy, and later confesses to Andrew that Ellie was nothing more than fabricated memories he planted into his mind.

LordYAM Since: Jan, 2015
#251100: Mar 8th 2021 at 1:46:18 AM

Yes, it's ongoing. The story's on temporary hiatus before arc 4 starts. Norvik will probably show up again. Sorry about the long post. If he goes up the actual post will be much shorter.

Edited by LordYAM on Mar 8th 2021 at 1:48:40 AM


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