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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#251026: Mar 7th 2021 at 3:18:49 PM

When you're listing it out nothing really strikes me as immediately problematic but it certainly does cement my no on Charlie. Stanley... I think I'll keep my yes on given you do mention he only had a short window to operate, though I do pause at the expanded mention of crimes letting me know their are far worse torturers on the list.

Klavice (Elder Troper)
#251027: Mar 7th 2021 at 3:21:12 PM

I'm actually a no for Stanley as his bodycount literally dwarfs Hayley's, and he's not the worst rapist out there, due to only raping one person. The heinous standard is so bogged up, you kinda have to be a serial killing pedophile in order to match Hayley or the rapist.

[down] Reaffirming my [tdown] on Charlie and Stanley.

Edited by Klavice on Mar 7th 2021 at 3:34:43 AM

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#251028: Mar 7th 2021 at 3:24:10 PM

43: I understand you voting Charlie down, as I said I wasn't sure if he was going to make it. I just figured with his abuse of his brother and the needless of two of his murders he was worth bringing up.

I'm not sure about far worse torturers though. Patricia has torture as her MO certainly, but overall its a pretty rare crime in the series (even rarer than rape). No one else imprisons a person to die of dehydration over a span of several days or uses a literal medieval torture device to slowly kill them.

Klavice: Um I think your getting confused. Hayley has a higher body count (and attempts to kill three more people), and Stanley didn't rape any one that was Sir Michael Fields.

Stanley was my proposal before Charlie. They guy who killed the burglar, his friend, his friends wife, imprisoned his wife in a well to die and slowly murdered another person with a mechanical Iron Maiden.

Edited by MGD107 on Mar 7th 2021 at 4:30:24 AM

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#251029: Mar 7th 2021 at 3:25:42 PM

Leaning no to Charlie

Personally I'm leaning yes to Film!Scarecrow, he has lower resources than the other characters and a much nastier MO.

Edited by papyru30 on Mar 7th 2021 at 4:26:59 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#251030: Mar 7th 2021 at 3:30:13 PM

Hmmm... elucidate me then because it might be worthwhile to talk about a bit and going by my confusion and Klavice having trouble keeping the names straight. In addition to Patricia you mention Orchard subjects people to "gruesome deaths"... does this one incorporate torture? It sure sounds like it does. Agnes is also burning to death... it's kinda splitting hairs to not call that torturing someone to death. Stanley might keep thanks to the short window he's got to commit the crimes but as is often said, resources is not a "get on the trope free card" and I think this bears some scrutiny when so many of us haven't seen the work and are struggling with working out the heinous standard.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#251031: Mar 7th 2021 at 3:36:40 PM

I’m thinking [tup] to Scarecrow as well since he has a huge part in helping guarantee the toxin nearly destroys Gotham along with other things he does too.

I also think he works as CM on a different level as the Joker as well and that heinousness judges them each differently. They’re much like Blackwood and Mortiarty, though they’re both closer to each other in that regard than Scarecrow and the Joker actually.

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#251032: Mar 7th 2021 at 3:36:44 PM

43: Happy to answer any questions you have.

No Orchard doesn't outright torture people, he drowns a woman in the bath, strangles then dismembers another, bleats an elderly couple to death and attempts to kill his next victim with a sledge hammer whilst whistling "here comes the bride".

Agnes, I suppose I'll concede burning people alive probably qualifies as torture. But its not exactly the same as leaving a person to slowly die of dehydration over the span of several days or locking them in a literal torture device that slowly drives spikes into their back.

Apart from that torture is really rare in this show. Their was one other killer who tortured a women by increasingly tightening her corset to try to get her to confess she was the one who was responsible for her son dying, and accidentally killed her in the process. And their was a duo who put two people in death traps (which to be fair is played for black comedy), but that's kind of all that's coming to mind at the moment.

I completely understand your desire for scrutiny, as you say you haven't seen the show (though I would recommend checking it out its really good). But I don't think its an issue.

I accept their is a high heinous standard but this isn't a show like Law and Order or Criminal Minds which regularly features harden killers with double digit body counts, multiple rapists or torturers or anything.

Midsomer Murders is closer to Agartha Christie, its brutal murders and the complex web of relationships within an idealised country surrounding.

Edited by MGD107 on Mar 7th 2021 at 4:18:29 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#251033: Mar 7th 2021 at 3:46:11 PM

Alright just to kinda simplify this going forward, I'd treat Stanley as the "lowest" tier one can be for CM in the setting—seriously, to me he is just getting by on that short time he operates for—and maybe cutting off there.

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#251034: Mar 7th 2021 at 3:47:49 PM

43: I completely understand, I honestly agree with your analysis. I wasn't a hundred percent sure he would make it either, but due to how rare torture is, his limited resources and still having one of the shows higher body counts. He just scrapes through.

But as he's evidently going to be the show last keeper (at least for now, the shows still on going although its unlikely any future keepers won't disqualify someone else considering the only remaining niche was deemed not enough), I guess its not an issue.

Edited by MGD107 on Mar 7th 2021 at 3:53:34 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#251035: Mar 7th 2021 at 3:54:20 PM

[lol] well now you know what to look for if you do decide to come back to it, so hopefully that helps!

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#251036: Mar 7th 2021 at 3:57:34 PM

Ha, ha, yeah I guess I will. I mean I'm still going to keep watching, this shows to much fun to stop. I just don't expect to find anymore keepers now, everyone who had a chance has already been reviewed.

Oh well I guess I'll get to work on the write ups.

Edited by MGD107 on Mar 7th 2021 at 4:12:39 AM

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#251037: Mar 7th 2021 at 4:23:57 PM

Hey so I noticed that the two Detective Conan candidates aren't on the anime A to F subpage. Is this a mistake or are they somewhere else?

[down]Thanks

Edited by papyru30 on Mar 7th 2021 at 5:53:16 AM

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#251038: Mar 7th 2021 at 4:44:39 PM

[up]They're there, just under Case Closed

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#251039: Mar 7th 2021 at 4:55:17 PM

Special thanks to SkyCat32 for allowing me to check on this

What's the Work

Esther is a oratorio created by George Frederic Handel (the guy who created the Hallelujah song) based off... what else... the Book of Esther from Abrahamic Religions. The story follows Esther as she becomes married to the king of Persia, while also trying to stop Haman from commencing a genocide against the Jews.

YouTube link here

Who's the Candidate

Big shock, it's Haman. The vizier to King Ahasuerus of Persia, Haman seeks to completely wipe out the Jewish race, claiming that it's God's will, and that no age or sex shall be spared. The Jewish populace, initially celebrating Esther's ascension to queen, no plead to God to save them from massacre. (some lyrics in Scene 3 describe babies being slammed against rocks or stabbed while being breastfed, and blood staining the Persian soldiers vests and flowing in the streams). Esther, having become Queen of Persia, is asked by her adopted father Mordecai to appeal to the king to repel the mandate, where he also reveals that Haman executed the genocide after Mordecai foiled an assassination attempt on the king and refused to bow to him. Esther goes to plead with Ahasuerus to repel the mandate, despite the fact that it would otherwise kill her. Ahasuerus finds that his love for her is more powerful than the rules saying that anyone who comes before him uninvited shall die, and accepts a invitation to dine at their house, with Haman in tow. At dinner, Esther reveals that Haman attempted to kill him and has been pulling wool over his eyes in order to get his decree passed. Haman attempts to weasel his way out of justice, but after being taken to a gallows (which he planned to hang Mordecai on), he shows that he has no remorse and curses them all while also believing that he's the one being persecuted. With his death, the Jewish peoples celebrate their freedom, which in real life, set up the holiday of Purim.

Freudian Excuse

Pretty much nothing. He's an egotistical, genocidal, and petty man who believes himself more important than he actually is, and can't accept taking no for an answer.

Heinousness standard

All the other Persian soldiers are on his payroll, so he pretty much has no competition.

For comparison to the Real Haman, he commits the same crimes as the original did, but the opera does have some added things, like his moral reasoning for the massacre (claiming that he'll do God's work) and his chewing out of them all as he says that he didn't do anything wrong (as you can see, he did everything wrong).

Final Verdict

You Decide

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#251040: Mar 7th 2021 at 4:59:19 PM

Just for clarification, does Haman actually carry out even a fraction of the genocide that the original failed to implement?

Thanks for your belated Purim present, btw.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Mar 7th 2021 at 8:00:09 AM

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#251041: Mar 7th 2021 at 4:59:41 PM

Some pothole suggestions:

And that's all I have for now.

STARCRUSHER99 The Moron from one of my unhealthy obsessions (Captain) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Moron
#251042: Mar 7th 2021 at 5:00:49 PM

Honestly leaning no to film Scarecrow. He accomplishes a lot with his few resources, but he ultimately is just second fiddle to a bunch of other Big Bads and to me doesn't quite breach the heinous standard. We've got Ra's al Ghul pulling his strings and supplying him with the materials he needs, Joker blowing up buildings, corrupting Harvey, playing his "social experiment", and killing dozens of police officers, plus Bane and Talia almost nuking the whole city (which he definitely doesn't know all of the details of) without even mentioning that they're the ones who threw it into No Man's Land and put him in power in the first place. He coasts on other people's power too much - without it, the second film shows he's reduced to a common drug dealer.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#251043: Mar 7th 2021 at 5:06:35 PM

Vote to Haman is totally contingent on if there's a difference between his portrayal here and the original. If the answers yes he seems like a no-brainer.

Yeah, with Scarecrow for me it's the issue Dragons frequently have on this list: what he does is horrible and he's hoping to make a buck doing it but he's always just a cog in a larger machine: the fear gas was something he hoped to make a quick buck off but it's Ra's' idea to deploy it on Gotham as part of his plan to fix the world's power structure—Well-Intentioned Extremist or not—and his later "job" in Bane's hellhole he turns Gotham into is one that he was almost certainly just assigned as part of the aforementioned Bane and Talia's plot. He's horrible but he's never really going the extra mile to do anything of his own. I'd be willing to hear the argument but given the number of plans that aim for putting millions of lives at risk and how many interchangeable mooks happily also sign off on said plans, I'm almost certainly going to be saying no.

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#251044: Mar 7th 2021 at 5:07:41 PM

One thing I forgot to mention, whereas in the Source Material, Haman's genocide kinda failed, here there's this stanza in the libretto

"Methinks I hear the mother's groans,

While babes are dashed against the stones!

I hear the infant's shriller screams,

Stabb'd at the mother's breast!

Blood stains the murderer's vest,

And through the city flows in streams"

Showing that there were Jews (in this case, infants) that were killed, and considering the Jews were mourning the loss in this scene (this lyric

"Ye sons of Israel mourn,

Ye never to your country shall return!")

I do think we see the impact of this, so it's not really offscreen.

Edited by nwotyzal on Mar 7th 2021 at 5:08:15 AM

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#251045: Mar 7th 2021 at 5:09:10 PM

Given that this version of Haman gets further and more explicit in his genocide than the original, and has delusions of righteousness that the original seemed to lack, I am slightly inclined towards approving this version of Haman.

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#251047: Mar 7th 2021 at 5:15:15 PM

Yeah I'm also leaning [tup] to Opera!Haman

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#251048: Mar 7th 2021 at 5:17:53 PM

I know I'm late, I know. >__< I've been busy with some other shiz and things here. Anyway, here's the last 24 candidate. And thanks once again, Lighty, for collabing with me in getting this EP done! smile

Okay, so as everyone knows, 24 is a show where Jack Bauer kills terrorists and saves Los Angeles from being blown up by a nuclear bomb. Also he says "damn it" a lot. Anyway, Season 2 focuses on CTU and Jack Bauer trying to stop terrorist group Second Wave led by Syed Ali from detonating a nuke in LA. Halfway into the season they succeed and apprehend Ali. But since this is 24, we know that there's more to the story. As it turns out, a group of businessmen who run an oil company in the Caspian Sea wanted the terrorists to get the bomb, and even helped them acquire it.

And it's largely because of this guy right here.

Who is He?

Peter Kingsley is the Big Bad for Season 2. He's also the one who let Second Wave procure the bomb.

What Has He Done?

Prior to Season 2, Kingsley contacted Roger Stanton, the head of NSA. He, alongside Max, all decided to smuggle a nuke into the country and let it fall into the hands of Second Wave. Roger never wanted the bomb to go off; he just wanted the bomb to enter the country so it would coerce the American government to increase their defenses against foreign countries and start a war. Kingsley and Max, however, secretly conspired against Roger; while Roger didn't want the bomb to go off and had a commando team in place to secure the bomb before it detonated, Kingsley did, not caring about the damage it would cause to Los Angeles.

A man who made a fortune in big oil, with deep ties to intelligence and mthe military, looking to profit all the more. Prior to Season 2, Kingsley contacted Roger Stanton, the head of NSA. He, alongside Max, all decided to smuggle a nuke into the country and let it fall into the hands of Second Wave. Roger never wanted the bomb to go off; he just wanted the bomb to enter the country so it would coerce the American government to increase their defenses against foreign countries and start a war. Kingsley and Max, however, secretly conspired against Roger; while Roger didn't want the bomb to go off and had a commando team in place to secure the bomb before it detonated, Kingsley did, not caring about the damage it would cause to Los Angeles. The end result is three nations blamed, a massive war between the US attacking them...and Kingsley's company profits enormously.

Essentially, Kingsley is numerous conspiracy theories personified in one man. Deciding to manipulate the Second Wave terrorist unit, led by Syed Ali (Doesn't count, loves his family), Kingsley has any loose ends wrapped up in the usual 24 way while having the team in charge of procuring the bomb eliminated. Three unnamed Arab nations were to be implicated by a fake recording as a result, having the chief of his own commando team silenced so a war could begin. Having Jack tortured, Kingsley continues working down the merry list of mouths to shut, killing his secretary/lover Eve when she fails him and because how else would we know a mass-murder oil executive trying to start World Wars 3-8 is evil?

Sherry Palmer induces Kingsley to meet her by tricking him, prompting Kingsley to try to kill her when he discovers she's lying. The end result, of course, is Jack's arrival and a fight ensuing with Jack killing Kingsley's men, but Kingsley himself getting the drop upon him. a CTU sniper however, manages to put a number of bullets through Kingsley, killing him and ruining the plan.

Heinous standard issues?

I think a reason this flew under the radar for so long is Kingsley is so banal about it. But...yes. Kingsley wants to nuke LA, something that is quite rare in show proper. The elimination of the squad/torture is icing, but he also wants to start a giant war. the only guy who compares here, honestly, would be Max himself.

Mitigating issues?

He's an oil magnate wanting to kickstart a world war with a nuke, what do you think? No, Kingsley is evil. He's evil to laughable levels. He's every negative stereotype given anthropomorphic resonance and embodied in an entirely unsubtle villain. No care for his right-hand woman, no family, no anything except for being evil and wanting a giant war to profit of. Any questions?

Final Verdict?

I'm saying yes here.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#251049: Mar 7th 2021 at 5:20:07 PM

Yes to Peter.


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