During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
From what I could gather, this version of Tirek desires to end all life. We'll see how that goes over.
At least, I think that's his goal. I don't really care.
edited 6th May '14 6:31:27 PM by AustinDR
Kind of an easy keep I want to propose: Shogo Makishima from the animePsycho-Pass
Now, Psycho Pass is in the future, concerning a Japan governed by the SYBIL system: an AI that installs a 'psycho pass' on people...when you gain negative emotions, the Psycho Pass goes cloudy...the more cloudy it gets, the closer you are to being a criminal...go all the way, you're a 'latent criminal' and can be locked away. Hunting down criminals are the main good guys...all of whom are latent criminals themselves.
Shogo Makishima is a Serial Killer who's killed tons of people. More than that, he's a cultivator of killers. He finds people with budding potential as murderers and nurtures them into fulfilling it, standing by to watch the fireworks, so to speak.However, he cares nothing for his 'toys' and once he's done with them, he has them eliminated. He forms a creepy fixation on the hero, Shinya, seeing Shinya as the Batman to Makishima's Joker.
Makishima wants to collapse society into anarchy, showing the true face of humanity as chaos, something he refers to as freedom. While Japan is a horrible dystopia, Makishima's freedom would be equally as horrible. He cares nothing for individual life, and just wants freedom to destroy and kill. Two other instances of horrible are when he has a friend of the heroine with a straight razor to her throat...when her programmed system won't allow her to shoot him, due to Makishima's 'Psycho Pass' being untainted by his utter lack of emotion, Makishima is so disgusted she won't step out from under the rules that he slits his hostage's throat. Think Pure Is Not Good here...he figured out a way to cheat the system...killing is just so natural to him, he forms a Dissonant Serenity about it.
At the end of the series, he plans to taint Japan's food supply and is barely stopped from doing so. His dying words are to ask Shinya what Shinya will have left without Makishima to chase.
Makishima hits every point. His body count is enormous and he has zero redeeming qualities. His reaction to his right hand man's death is simply irritation and he never mentions the man again. His beliefs in freedom are as warped as the Joker's view on anarchy, and his monstrosity is extremely apparent whenever he appears. Two of his lackeys may also count as well.
On Supernatural btw, I think we can finally add Abbadon herself...and nix Crowley from the considerations for good.
Makishima was a fun one. An excellent example showing that just because you're rebelling against a lousy governing system, doesn't make you a hero in any way whatsoever. He even set up a guy who killed for him very willfully to get hunted down just for kicks. A real nasty piece of work that one.
That being said, a few things need to be cleared up about him before he can be listed. First off, if I recall correctly he speaks about how how lonely he felt when he was younger because it was impossible for him to connect with anyone. I don't think that's a proper Freudian Excuse, but it's something to consider. Second, and more importantly, there's his friendship with Choe Gu-Sung, which might be genuine. Makishima got along well with him, and he seemed a bit sad upon seeing his death. Still, it's been awhile since I watched Psycho-Pass, so I may be misremembering some things. If those things (especially the second one) get cleared up, then he should be listed.
edited 6th May '14 8:20:02 PM by Sterok
I did address Choe. Makishima does look...frustrated, but he gets over it quick and never mentions him again, ever. Makishima also made it pretty clear he doesn't really see anyone as people...just tools.
And his childhood isn't used as a freudan excuse. He never, ever tries to justify himself that way. He just points out how he was always superior to everyone and couldn't form attachments due to his complex
Thoughts on the other lackeys, Sterok? I was thinking of Rikako and the hunter fellow.
edited 6th May '14 8:45:02 PM by Lightysnake
Can't think of anything to disqualify Rikako off the top of my head, especially since she's merely a high school girl who gets off on torturing and killing her fellow students for art.
Hunter dude I'm less sure about. He's definitely a nasty fellow, but I'm not sure he does enough to stand out. For the most part he's just a killer who enjoys the thrill of the hunt. He doesn't go to the extremes Makishima does, and he doesn't have the lower threat level Rikako does. He might qualify, but he's a harder sell.
I think he rests in the middle, given we see evidence of a massive bodycount...and the way he goes about it is ridiculously nasty..hunting people for sport, murdering them horribly, making tools from their bones as sick trophies...what distinguishes Rikako for me is her being a rapist. The hunter basically has innocent people kidnapped so he can hunt them and murder them for a sick thrill.
edited 6th May '14 9:03:27 PM by Lightysnake
Surely. I'll do a full proposal for Rikako soon. Makishima's the easiest in series, I'd say...reviewing the scenes, I can't view it as redeeming. Makishima rejects the notion of anything so simple as a Freudian Excuse to define him and after Choe does, he just flat out forgets about him like he lost a favorite toy and moved on.
Anyone else who follows Supernatural have thoughts on Abaddon?
edited 6th May '14 9:59:02 PM by Lightysnake
Someone please PM me when we're done discussing Psycho Pass. I'm only a few episodes in and I'd like to avoid spoilers.
for Stanley.
edited 7th May '14 12:22:13 AM by KyleJacobs
And from willbyr regarding the Metal Gear and Elder Scrolls monster pages...
8125, 8127: It looks like Eddie never got around to restoring those pages...they might be able to be salvaged through the Wayback Machine.
....Okay, this is kinda bad. It's been weeks and we have total blank links in those pages due to this. There needs to be a way to fix this shit ASAP
And from willbyr regarding the Metal Gear and Elder Scrolls monster pages...
8125, 8127: It looks like Eddie never got around to restoring those pages...they might be able to be salvaged through the Wayback Machine.
....Okay, this is kinda bad. It's been weeks and we have total blank links in those pages due to this. There needs to be a way to fix this shit ASAP
Has anyone here played the original Perfect Dark for the N64 (subsequently ported to Xbox Live Arcade)? If so, I would like to nominate Trent Easton for consideration as a complete monster.
Trent serves as the game's tertiary antagonist. He is first introduced in the G5 Building as the director of the NSA and one of the key conspirators collaborating with the Skedar, a dogmatic alien species that glorifies warfare and seeks dominion over the universe. His presence can be felt throughout the next six missions, whether in person or indirectly as the overseer of operations in Area 51. He is charged with securing the loan of the Pelagic II deep sea research vessel to DataDyne Corporation from the President of the United States, but his attempts at persuasion failed. He launches a backup plan to replace the original President with a clone that would be more sympathetic to their cause.
So why does Trent Easton qualify as a complete monster? To be honest, it's debatable whether or not he really does. As far as the storyline for Perfect Dark is concerned, I don't think anyone would dispute that he is the most solidly evil villain in the entire game. To put this in perspective, let's examine the other antagonists as a reference point:
- As CEO of DataDyne Corporation, Cassandra De Vries is smug, unscrupulous, and temperamental; she possesses little in the way of positive attributes. Nevertheless, she does make an attempt at redemption in sacrificing her own life to aid Joanna's fight against the Skedar. Notwithstanding other mitigating factors, this act alone precludes her inclusion.
- Even taking his true identity as an elite Skedar warrior into account, Mr. Blonde remains a mysterious figure. He serves as an intermediary between his extraterrestrial overlords and their unwitting human associates. The extent of his influence over the operation is never revealed. He could be acting on very specific instructions from his superiors, or he could have been delegated the task of overseeing the conspiracy and its logistics independently. Granted, it is clear that he allows both Trent and Cassandra a significant degree of independence in fulfilling their obligations: securing the Pelagic II deep sea research vessel to access the Cetan, and developing an artificial sapient to control it, respectively. Actually, whether or not Mr. Blonde is even a specific Skedar is not known.
- Although he serves as the final boss and is presumably the "alien behind the curtain" throughout the game, the Skedar King is not well substantiated as a character. Since we cannot draw any conclusions about his personality, the only villain archetype we can attribute to him is that of a stock Evil Overlord.
From what can be observed, Trent is arrogant, ambitious, and aggressive - but the way he goes about abducting the President of the United States stands out in particular. After the President and his entourage have all boarded Air Force One, Trent directs the NSA to swiftly and violently take control of the Alaskan Air Base. It can be assumed that several innocent people were murdered in the process. The flight security, pilots, and attendants were not notified of the events happening just outside the plane, as they occurred very shortly before take-off. The plane was hijacked mid-flight by the NSA and their Skedar allies (presumably seen as clones of Mr. Blonde). Once again, several innocent people were killed, and attempts were made on the President's life. After the plane crashes somewhere on Victoria Island, Trent abandons all pretense of loyalty to the President and personally tries to kill him. His whole plan was to kidnap and kill the current President, replace him with a clone, and use that as the means in which to secure the Pelagic II. Trent fails and is killed by Mr. Blonde in his Skedar form.
What really separates Trent from the rest is the sadistic pleasure he takes in carrying out his nefarious deeds. The intonation of his voice when threatening people, the nonchalance he exhibits when talking about his plan in the G5 building, the endless aggression towards everyone around him - this guy is bad news.
I'm very interested in hearing what other forum members have to say. :-)
edited 7th May '14 5:42:33 AM by Kurtis
Since were making creator pages for the Video Games subpage I think we should make one for Konami. We could include Metal Gear, Policenauts, Zone of the Enders, and Castlevania: Lords of Shadow.
Spoilers for Supernatural Season 9: I've been wondering about Abaddon, but it took a while for her to stand out. We might want to delay adding her until the end of the recent season (only about 3 episodes or so). I doubt that they'll inexplicably throw in a post-mortem redemption, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were another flashback to her past evils or other crimes revealed.
She's definately the most evil villain in her part of the series in its later years, with the arc bad guys Metatron, Gadreel, Naomi, and Crowley all less heinous than her, having redeeming traits, Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds qualities or Well-Intentioned Extremist. Crowley went throught some weird Villain Decay (he became increasingly evil in season 8, then in season 9 he gradually became a mostly harmless snarker), but he's disqualified for loving his son. I think the only question is how Abaddon stacks up to the other characters who qualified, in particular Lillith and Alastair, but by the end she's probably evil enough in her own right.
The sum total of her crimes: she murders Cain's friends and his wife in front of him, destroys the Men of Letters by killing most of their members, murders Henry Winchester and anyone else who gets in her way, torture Crowley's son in front of him, goes back on a Hostage for MacGuffin deal at least twice just so she can kill everyone, and a lot of the usual possession and murder of bystanders.
If I'm not mistaken her end goal was to turn the Earth into a dystopian hellworld with daily murder and torture, putting her on more or less the same level as Lillith and Alastair, who gleefully arrange for Lucifer to murder the world simply because it coincides with their own sadistic natures. Lillith goes really far with her baby-eating (Alastair doesn't attempt to kill children onscreen, but that's probably just lack of opportunity), but Abaddon apparently has the same hobby, promising Dean that she'll use his body while she's chomping on newborns. Like Alastair and Lillith she's also one of the least loyal demons, never even considering bringing back Lucifer (who give her her title to begin with), and simply wants to rule everything.
You've got roaming bands of armed, aggressive, tyrannical plumbers coming to your door, saying "Use our service, or else!"

EDIT: I mean, I guess they could establish him as a multiversal singularity if they wanted to. But I don't think they will.
edited 6th May '14 6:20:51 PM by LordXavius