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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#228926: Sep 14th 2020 at 6:54:48 PM

Hey, guys, sorry I've been absent...super busy and not feeling too hot, be back when I can

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#228927: Sep 14th 2020 at 6:55:51 PM

Tentative no to the Hudsons.

[up] Refua Shlema.

RobertTYL Since: Oct, 2019 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
#228928: Sep 14th 2020 at 6:57:21 PM

[up][up] Oh, sorry to hear that. Not sure what you're up to, but good luck sorting out whatever it may be

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#228929: Sep 14th 2020 at 6:58:07 PM

Take care lighty.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#228930: Sep 14th 2020 at 7:01:17 PM

Abstain on the Hudsons.

Take good care, Lighty.

It's Spooky Month!
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#228931: Sep 14th 2020 at 7:06:33 PM

Okay, Also...I've expressed my dissatisfaction with the way this thread handles newcomers before:

Please stop just saying 'do an effortpost.

Most people don't know what it is, dismissively saying "it' at the top of the page" doesn't help. Be cordial to anyone new here in good faith and help them as much as possible. Regarding the listed crimes:

Driving a pregnant girl (The titular character's birth mother) to suicide by threatening her and the unborn baby and also spreading rumors about her despite knowing it was their son's child

Wad the suicide done intentionally?

Everett sunk his own ship with a bomb to get back at the guy who was having an affair with his wife. He ended up killing 12 other people on board. (In my option if he wanted to kill him then it could been done without other causalities)

Sounds nasty enough for Everett.

Strongly indicated that the wife knew by confessing her affair she would end up having her lover being killed by her own husband. As petty revenge for once dating their son. They caused Lucy's mother to be fired from her job and basically blacklisted from finding other job in town.

This right here shouldn't be mentioned with the rest. Blacklisting from a job is not CM territory.

Okay, from what I'm seeing? Does Everett love his wife or just feel possessive over her? If it's the former, he can't count (and you said he was angry over an affair, so I want to make sure).

However, his wife I'm leaning no on. The suicide thing is bad, but Everett has it and a body count of a dozen beside. For a babysitter mystery how, without significant competition, it's probably enough.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#228932: Sep 14th 2020 at 7:07:18 PM

More Vertigo from me! It's been a while.

What's the work?

The Losers is a 2004-2005 series by Andy Diggle, which I can sort of describe as 15% James Bond, 15% Ocean's Eleven, and 70% scathing critique by the very British Diggle of post-9/11 American foreign policy. The series is actually a setting update of a '70s series by Robert Kanigher, in which five WWII soldiers from different branches of the military, each mistakenly reported KIA, band together as a secret commando unit to use the fact that the Nazis think they're all dead to their advantage.

In the updated version, the Losers are already together as a team of CIA agents, each with a different specialty - Col. Franklin Clay, CO; Cpt. William Roque, XO; Cpt. Jake Jensen, tech specialist; Sgt. Linwood "Pooch" Porteous, pilot; Sgt. Carlos "Cougar" Alvarez, sniper; and Aisha al-Fadhil, a mysterious, beautiful, and utterly brutal Afghan guerrilla fighter. Accepting a simple job to bump off an arms and sex trafficker, the group inadvertently stumble upon a criminal conspiracy, led by an extremely high-ranking CIA agent known only as "Max," who seems to demonstrate supernatural abilities and may or may not be the Devil, to fund the American military-industrial complex by conducting secret trades of guns, drugs, and slaves to countries that are "on paper" the US's enemies, keeping the country perpetually at war and the highest ranking people on both sides perpetually rich (try not to keel over from the near-radioactive levels of 2005-ness this story has, my dudes)! Max orders them killed for discovering his secret, and though he doesn't manage to get them, he does blow up a plane full of child slaves they'd rescued from the trafficker. So yeah, they're fucking pissed.

So obviously the character I'm discussing here is... not Max, but Roque!

Who is William Roque? What has he done?

As mentioned, Roque is the executive officer of the Losers unit when the story begins. A scar-faced, buzz-cutted mountain of a man, it's apparent from the beginning that he's the most cynical and amoral of the group apart from maybe Aisha, and the only one without an idealistic motive; he's Only in It for the Money, a fact Max uses to his advantage to turn Roque against his teammates with the promise of a cool $250,000,000. At the beginning, the Losers discover the basics of Max's operation - the smuggled goods are transported around the world in the tankers of an American oil company and the resulting profits distributed through a British bank, with "Max" being the controlling shareholder of both companies, thus allowing him to manage the traffic without actually having to personally handle the bad stuff. Roque reveals himself as a traitor during an attempt to steal evidence of Max's latest "transaction," an assload of heroin, from one of these tankers; teaming up with Max's Psycho for Hire Wade, he not only prepares an ambush for his "friends," but plants evidence to make it look like they are the smugglers, even shooting an agent come to arrest them dead to make them look especially dangerous. Of course, the heroes escape. They catch up with Roque and Wade again at the airfield where they're having their giant shipping crate of moolah flown out of the country, and a battle ensues that ends in the most hilariously action-movie-y way possible; Wade crashes his jeep and is launched through the windshield straight into the plane, mulching him, crashing the plane, destroying the blood money, and seemingly killing Roque... emphasis on seemingly. He escapes via parachute.

With the heroes now believing he's dead, Roque and his men assassinate several seemingly unrelated people, including a CalTech vulcanologist and a CIA deputy director. The Losers learn he's alive when they raid the central office of the aforementioned bank for more dirt on Max; Roque is caught on camera withdrawing every single drop of Max's account money as bearer bonds, cluing them in that he's about to make a big play. Roque uses the money to bribe a Russian submarine captain into jumping ship to Max's organization, then has him sink two French ships transporting plutonium, which is retrieved by Roque's divers. Another battle ensue in which Roque seemingly kills Jensen, but Jensen actually stages a dead henchman's body as his own and blow's up Roque's ship while he's at it. Roque again barely escapes... to Pripyat, Ukraine, the infamous "ghost town" evacuated after Chernobyl.

In the story's second-to last arc, the Losers have their final showdown with Roque in Pripyat while Max reveals his master plan to the US President - acting on top-secret orders from an unnamed previous prez, Max was tasked with preventing the developing world, especially Muslim-majority countries, from becoming a threat to the US using the ultimate Godzilla Threshold: the creation of a pro-American nuclear rogue state in international waters, the US's own "pet North Korea," the Republic of New Jerusalem. The aforementioned vulcanologist was killed because he realized that a large earthquake in the Persian Gulf was going to create a new island - it's here Max has set up shop. Roque is totally on board with this, and his ultimate role in the plot is to manufacture dozens of suitcase nukes from the stolen plutonium, with the aid of heavily armed robots and. Pooch gets captured, and Roque wrenches one of his little fingers out of its socket with a pair of pliers, gloating that the rest of him will be next. He notices too late, though, one of the robots, commandeered by the hacker Jensen, getting closer and closer, and the 'bot deliciously blows the traitor unto his just reward.

The Losers rescue Pooch and escape just before the first nuke goes off, reducing the ghost town to ash to prove Max isn't bluffing. It's off to New Jerusalem for the final battle...

Mitigating factors?

In terms of Roque himself, nothing to report. No excuse offered, only cares about money, concepts like morals, patriotism, friends and colleagues, and millions, maybe even billions, of innocent lives lost mean nothing to him. There is something worth discussing, though...

...and that, as you might've guessed, is Max. You're probably wondering why this EP isn't the big man himself. Well, I'll try to summarize as briefly as I can. Max, as it turns out, is not a supernatural being; his various seemingly magical abilities, including being in multiple places at once and healing immediately from serious wounds, are the result of the fact that he isn't one man, but three! A father and his twin sons. Max Senior was appointed after WWII to run the agency's most morally repugnant operations; his first was the infamous Operation Paperclip, in which Nazi scientists were given pardons on the condition that they defect to the US, and he was active throughout the Cold War until he repeatedly advocated for the nuclear genocide of the Chinese. Marked for death, he escaped to, ironically enough, China, where he started his family before the assassin finally caught up with him; not wanting to kill children, he spared the two Max Juniors. His loss; extensively indoctrinated and trained combat since birth, the two little boys hacked the veteran spy to pieces. They were then raised by the CIA until, coming of age at the end of the Cold War, they were given the aforementioned order.

And you know? They sincerely believe they're right. One of them gets a lengthy Motive Rant at one point about how he honestly believes peaceful coexistence between the US and countries like Iran is impossible and the only way to prevent them nuking our ass is to nuke their ass first. I'm not sure if this makes the Max Juniors WIEs, just plain nuts, or so indoctrinated that their agency is impaired, but I'm not comfortable EPing them either way. More objectively, they care about each other - in addition to avenging their father, Max Jr. 2 is enraged when Aisha blows up Max Jr. 1. And where Roque comes in is that, while he's fully complicit in everything the Maxes do, and for a much, much more selfish reason, all his deeds are on their orders.

Verdict?

Your call. Do Roque's utterly cynical and selfish motives abrogate the fact that he's through-and-through a "functionary" of the Maxes, or no? You tell me!

And get well soon Lighty!

Edited by HamburgerTime on Sep 14th 2020 at 9:07:52 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#228933: Sep 14th 2020 at 7:08:33 PM

As we'd discussed, leaning yes to Roque.

Don't let Everett discourse be lost in this one, please, though, folks

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#228935: Sep 14th 2020 at 7:13:31 PM

[tup]Roque. Classic Pyscho For Hire.

Was wondering about comic Max. I know his film version who is up genuinely is just one dude.

Edited by miraculous on Sep 14th 2020 at 7:13:52 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#228936: Sep 14th 2020 at 7:15:17 PM

[tup] to Roque

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
PurpleEyedGuma Since: Apr, 2020
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#228938: Sep 14th 2020 at 7:22:24 PM

'Max' seems to care about one another. One twin explicitly lists his brother's death as a reason for revenge

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#228939: Sep 14th 2020 at 7:25:29 PM

Just yea to Everett also, but nay to Celia as she's not in on the boat bombing and seems quite controlled by Everett from the description.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#228940: Sep 14th 2020 at 7:27:50 PM

Does Everett care about his wife at all. Easy yeah to him if not

Might recheck some of my old nancy drew and hardy boys books. I think their might be a couple of candidates honestly from memory.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#228941: Sep 14th 2020 at 7:35:26 PM

Yes to Roque... leaning yeah to Everett as well.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#228942: Sep 14th 2020 at 7:36:32 PM

Yes to Everett if he doesn't care about his wife.

Yes to Roque as well.

No to Celia.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Sep 14th 2020 at 10:38:46 AM

RobertTYL Since: Oct, 2019 Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
#228943: Sep 14th 2020 at 7:39:24 PM

TIL there is a Nancy Drew TV show from as recently as last year. With a two-digit bodycount

I remember my sister reading several of the books in the 90s (plus the Hardy Boys), but I'm more into Enid Blyton's stuff and never bothered to pick them up. The more I know...

[tup] Roque

Edited by RobertTYL on Sep 14th 2020 at 9:39:55 PM

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#228944: Sep 14th 2020 at 7:40:28 PM

[tup] to Everett pending the answer anout his wife

Thanks for the reality check, Lighty. This thread can get a little newbie bitey at times

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
HarleyQuinnIsGreat Since: Feb, 2020
#228945: Sep 14th 2020 at 7:52:10 PM

I have a second candidate. I just remembered this film recently. I think this one is more of a keeper than my last one.

What is the Work

Act of Vengeance, a 1974 American exploitation film. It's about a group of women who have all been attacked by the same hockey mask wearing rapist. They team up to find the rapist and bring him to justice.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

Jack. The hockey mask wearing Serial Rapist who is the main antagonist of the film. He assaults women and forces them to sing "Jingle Bells" while he rapes them. The film opens on a young woman named Linda, who is soon assaulted by him. Jack is actually Linda's boyfriend, but because of the mask, she does not know it is him. He rapes her after kicking her in the face and forces her to sing while he assaults her.

It's revealed that he has raped three other girls, and the police are unable to catch him because they don't know who he is and he never actually leaves any semen when he rapes his victims, leaving a lack of evidence. After he rapes a fifth woman named Karen, she, Linda, and the other three women, Nancy, Teresa, and Angie, come together to hunt the rapist down and bring him to justice (because Police Are Useless).

Jack eventually attacks a sixth women named Diane, and accidentally strangles her to death during a failed rape attempt. Jack soon decides to get all five women together so he can rape them each all over again. After baiting them around town, he leads them to the grounds of the abandoned zoo for his final confrontation with them. When Teresa decides to try to go call the police, Jack picks her off and kills her. He than captures Karen after she gets separated from the others. He proceeds to use Karen as a hostage to make the other three surrender so he can rape the four of them again, showing them Teresa's corpse and threatening to kill Karen if they don't do as he says. He gets Angie and Nancy to lock themselves in a cage for him so he can rape them, but Linda refuses to surrender and mocks his prowess as a lover, prompting him to unmask himself to her to show that he's good enough to get her to date him. Shrugging off the reveal, Linda continues to taunt Jack, eventually enraging him enough to leave the subdued Karen and attempt to kill Linda. He tries to strangle her, but she beats him to death with a shovel. The film ends with her freeing the others.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

No Freudian Excuse here. While he does at one point admit that after accidentally killing Diane he doesn't like the sensation of killing people and wants to not do it again, this goes out the window when he intentionally kills Teresa, threatens to kill Karen, and tries to kill Linda.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

He certainly meets the baseline. Five successful rapes, one intentional murder, five attempted rapes, one attempted murder, and one act of manslaughter. As for the story's standards, there is a pimp who beats women, a peeping tom who makes obscene phone calls, and a man known to be guilty of at least one rape. Most of the men in the film are disgusting perverts. That said, Jack outshines them by being a serial rapist and a murderer.

Final Verdict?

He's a keeper in my opinion.

Before anyone asks, the film tries to "empower" women by having them band together to deal with rapists and other degenerate men, so no, it's not meant to just "shock and disturb" or come off as offensive to women.

SkyCat32 The Draftsman of Doom (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
The Draftsman of Doom
#228947: Sep 14th 2020 at 7:55:02 PM

Yes to Jack.

Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#228948: Sep 14th 2020 at 8:00:06 PM

[tup]Jack.

Why so serious?
therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#228949: Sep 14th 2020 at 8:02:55 PM

[tup] Roque, Everett, and Jack

It's Spooky Month!
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#228950: Sep 14th 2020 at 8:11:25 PM

[tup] Yuri, Goebbels, Dai Li, Dirlewanger, Roque and Jack

[tdown] Celia

Abstain on Everett pending whether or not he lives his wife.


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