During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
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"Manfred, as a prosecutor, got lots of innocent people thrown in jail"
This is entirely Offscreen Villainy though. We never see Manfred actually putting any innocents in jail, not even in the flashback cases in Investigations.
"Kristoph and the phantom are responsible for Phoenix and Blackquill getting harshly punished for crimes they never committed"
And this is classic Protagonist-Centered Morality. Granted I haven't played Dual Destines yet so can't comment on the Phantom but Kristoph getting Phoenix disbarred is only seen as especially henious because Phoenix is the main character. Objectively getting a lawyer disbarred is not anywhere near murdering people on a henious level.
I'm not trying to argue Von Karma/Gavin don't count; Gavin definitely counts imo because he's the only AA Big Bad with zero even possible redeeming qualities that the game goes out of its way to present as this inhuman beast, Von Karma I'm less sure about because he does get some possible humanization with Fransika in the flashback cases but I'm not trying to make a case to remove him at all. My point is that I dont see how Engarde is any less heinous compared to those two and therefore I dont get the logic behind his removal.
Edited by WaryHoglet on Mar 4th 2020 at 2:11:40 AM
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No offense but I kind of resent the implication that points shouldn't be brought up because its too much discussion - the point of this thread is to discuss these sorts of things and I would rather potentially have long discussions then make incorrect verdicts just to get through a checklist quickly
Edited by WaryHoglet on Mar 4th 2020 at 2:13:30 AM
By the way, some of the pics on the image links page can't bee seen unless you're signed in to a Google account. That feels like something that should be corrected.
I've got an old entry of mine I'd like to rewrite. I'm not fond of my old Bloodsport rewrite—particularly the way it uses "massacres" nearly three times in a row—so I'd like to submit a swapped-up one.
- The second Bloodsport, Alexander Trent, is a rabidly murderous neo-Nazi who adopts the Bloodsport mantle in a crusade to murder as many "impure" people as he can. Bloodsport massacres his way through Hob's Heights, a poor, impoverished neighborhood mostly full of black people, and leaves over thirty bodies behind him. Bloodsport later attempts to burn over a dozen hostages alive, and seeming perishes in a suicide run attempting to take down as many officers as he could with him to the grave. Awakening again after Lex Luthor devastates Metropolis, Bloodsport exploits the chaos to resume his rampage, killing an entire family the second he's armed and continuing to slaughter dozens more from there. Bloodsport wards off Superman's attention by setting up automated machine guns to open fire upon blocks of innocent people, while targeting a crisis relief center soon afterwards. Utterly nothing like his predecessor, the second Bloodsport was nothing more than a racist, cowardly bully with too many guns from the start to the end of his life.
Oh, on Engarde—I think this is a case where Engarde's at the threshold. It's a point he's obviously nastier than others we disqualified like Redd White (one murder + Offscreen Villainy suicides) and Roger Retinz (one murder, exceptionally godawful as the circumstance was). I still think Kristoph Gavin, for example, is doing everything Engarde does and more with more affecting, personal villainy that eclipses what Engarde does—and Gavin is the absolute low point I would point to when it comes to being able to being able to qualify in the franchise. The Big Bad villains are now at the point where they're not-uncommonly willing to dip into the triple-digits.
Engarde is a "just, but not quite" case for me.
Edited by Scraggle on Mar 4th 2020 at 3:52:34 AM
Allow me:
- Alexander Trent, the second Bloodsport, is a rabidly murderous neo-Nazi who adopts the Bloodsport mantle in a crusade to murder as many "impure" people as he can. Bloodsport massacres his way through Hob's Heights, a poor, impoverished neighborhood mostly full of black people, and leaves over thirty bodies behind him. Bloodsport later attempts to burn over a dozen hostages alive, and seemingly perishes in a suicide run attempting to take down as many officers as he could with him to the grave. Awakening again after Lex Luthor devastates Metropolis, Bloodsport exploits the chaos to resume his rampage, killing an entire family the second he's armed and continuing to slaughter dozens more from there. Bloodsport wards off Superman's attention by setting up automated machine guns to open fire upon blocks of innocent people, while targeting a crisis relief center soon afterwards. Utterly nothing like his predecessor, the second Bloodsport was nothing more than a racist, cowardly bully with too many guns from the start to the end of his life.
I mean, while I didn't agree with the decision to cut Matt I can at least agree that he doesn't measure up to Kristoph. For one, Kristoph was willing to kill a twelve year old girl with poisoned nail polish (Granted, she wasn't actually poisoned until she was nineteen, but Kristoph gave it to her with the intent of killing a kid due to observing the way she'd bite her fingers when nervous). Matt, while still awful, never sank quite that low.
Now for proper votes, that'll be a yes for Ravok's Joker incarnation (Bored as I tend to be of CM incarnations of Joker, I really liked the emphasis on psychological manipulation with this guy), Evangeline, Sauron, Ashbury, and both Hitlers.

Wary Hoglet: I am fairly certain that the main reason for Engarde not making it is because the keepers all have effects beyond their murders. Manfred, as a prosecutor, got lots of innocent people thrown in jail. Dahlia engages in Demonic Possession and emotional abuse as well as her kills. Quercus is responsible for nearly every murder in the game, and presumably many more since he runs a smuggling ring. Kristoph and the phantom are responsible for Phoenix and Blackquill getting harshly punished for crimes they never committed, and ushered in the Dark Age of the Law, where lawyers did whatever they wanted with no restrictions and faith in the court was zero. And Garan ran a dictatorship which had many people murdered just for opposing her.
Compared to all that... I can see how Engarde kinda falls short, even if I personally would love for him to qualify.
Edited by MasterN on Mar 4th 2020 at 2:07:28 AM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.