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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#204101: Mar 4th 2020 at 8:20:27 AM

[tup] Hitler, Antichrist!Hitler, Ashbury, U'tlun'ta, Joker and Mimic

Speaking of Ashbury, I've got another overlooked candidate from a stinker, through it's a portrayal of a candidate that exists in a much superior work(or rather a candidate in said superior work that qualifies thanks to the supplementary material written by the author rather than the work itself, where they're more of an Orcus on His Throne sort of character).

What is the Work?

The Lord of the Rings: Conquest is a 2009 action game developed by Pandemic Studios and published by Electronic Arts. It is derived from The Lord of the Rings film trilogy, and borrows many gameplay mechanics from Pandemic's Star Wars: Battlefront games. It is an awful game, which is a shame considering that these guys did the old Battlefront II(through the new Battlefront II by DICE/EA did get better over time) and the Saboteur.

The game has two campaigns, Good and Evil. Good campaign obviously follows the movie to the letter, but has a few deviations like Gimli retaking Moria and stopping an attempted resurrection of the Balrog(yeah..I'm serious). The evil campaign, titled Rise of Sauron, however is where things get really interesting, through still a rather subpar game. It takes place right at the end of Return of the King and in it, the Nazgul arrive at Mount Doom much earlier and Gollum dosen't attack when Frodo claims the ring for himself, this buys the Nazgul time to ascend to Mount Doom and kill Frodo retriving the ring for our candiate.

Who is he?

To nobody's surprise, Sauron. Now to review, in the novel trilogy and the movies Sauron is an Orcus on His Throne with little character to qualify. However in the Legendarium itself and taking into account The Silmarillion and the appendices, he gets a large list of crimes and much more characterization that pushes him into CM territory.

In the good campaign in this game he dosen't do much except get beaten by Isildur in the tutorial mission and remains the Orcus on His Throne that we know of in the movie trilogy. The evil campaign, which is set through a For Want Of A Nail divergence at the Battle of Black Gate where the Nazgul arrive at Mount Doom much earlier and Gollum dosen't attack however, has him do a few things upon reclaiming the ring to regain his power over Middle Earth in a campaign that reads like one giant Dark Fic for the franchise.

What does he do?

Upon the Nazgul attacking Mount Doom, Sauron has them deal with rebel Orcs wanting to claim the ring for themselves. He uses the blood of these rebel Orcs to resurrect the Witch King(admittly....this kinda makes sense, since iirc in the books and the Legendarium the Ringwraiths life forces were bound to Sauron and cannot truly die until he dies), who kills Frodo and retrieves the ring for Sauron. Now with Sauron's power restored, he sends the mouth of Sauron to destroy Osgiliath, killing Faramir in the process. His forces then attack Gondor and take Minas Tirith, cannibalizing the population, the bodies of the dead kings, and setting the White Tree on Fire. His forces then attack Moria, where he revives the Balrog using some sort of Dark Ritual, and sics the Balrog onto Gimli.

His armies then pursues the Gondorian remnants to Weathertop, and kills Aragorn there. Then they attack Rivendell, taking Elrond's ring for Sauron and killing Legolas, which Sauron personally does. With most of Middle Earth under his control, Sauron attacks the Shire, they burn houses in Hobbiton, most likely killing anyone in these houses. This is done to draw out Treebeard, whom Sauron sics the Balrog on. Treebeard is subsequently burned and his burning corpse used to burn to death any Hobbit resisting Sauron's rule. Then the player is ordered to kill 50 Hobbits to draw out Gandalf. Once Gandalf is drawn out, Sauron personally kills Gandalf. With Gandalf's death, all of Middle Earth is left at Sauron's mercy.

Freudian Excuse or Redeeming Qualities

Come on, it's Sauron. Aside from his supposed "enforce total order through tyranny to achieve perfection" motivation(which isn't even mentioned in game), hah.

Heinousness Standard?

Come on, it's Sauron, sets it. Morgoth is long gone and dosen't really have any stake in the heinous standard of the Third Age anyways outside maybe his corruption of Arda in the past. Even discounting his(Sauron's) crimes in The Silmarillion and focusing on the game itself, he is responsible for resurrecting another rogue Maia to fight for him in Moria, siccing his soldiers to cannibalize the population of Minas Tirith, and killing Hobbits for the express purporse of luring out Treebeard and Gandalf to their deaths.

Other Mitagating qualities?

Ok here's where things might get a bit iffy. Most of his actions in the evil campaign, at least up to the last mission, are generic villain actions of conquering all they see beneath them. Even the Orcs cannibalizing Minas Tirith, while bad in itself, isn't depicted as graphic enough to push Sauron into CM territory on it's own, since it's something that's stated to happen by the narrator once the player beats that level, and there's no cutscene that really shows the implications of this action. Him resurrecting the Balrog and him destroying Rivendell are presented as "bad guy resurrects another bad guy and destroys his enemies". Assuming you discount the Legendarium and only take the game's evil campaign at face value and maybe just his actions in the movies(since the evil campaign takes place due to a point of divergence at the end of the movies) up to the attack on Rivendell, it isn't arguably enough to qualify him.

....until you get to the final mission. The mission where you have to first burn down hobbit homes? Yeah it's a mission objective that the player has to do to draw out Treebeard. This is the same with the kill 50 Hobbits mission, so you actually get to kill 50 Hobbits and burn down their homes to draw out Gandalf and Treebeard. I think that giving that we see it onscreen rather than something that is briefly stated to happen by the narrator, his own sacking of the Shire, with the purpose of massacring the population just to draw out two divine beings so he could kill them and enslaving the Hobbits is enough to push him over the edge if we discount the Legendarium and just focus on the movies and the evil campaign and just focus on his in-game(and maybe in-movie) actions.

Verdict

I'll say, even discounting works in the Legendarium that push him into CM territory such as The Silmarillion and focusing on the game itself, narrow [tup] from me mostly based on his actions in the final mission pushing him over the edge.

Edited by xie323 on Mar 4th 2020 at 8:32:28 AM

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#204102: Mar 4th 2020 at 8:22:47 AM

[up] Honestly, I feel like Eviler than Thou is often misused to mean "one character proves more evil than another". From what I gather, the trope is really about one villain's particular brand of evil (apparently or actually) proving superior to another's, such as a sneaky schemer getting the better of a blunt brute or vice versa.

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#204104: Mar 4th 2020 at 8:25:24 AM

Yes to Sauron.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#204107: Mar 4th 2020 at 8:30:44 AM

@emperors, to answer your other question, Villain Respect is not inherently disqualifying. It can be, depending on how it gets portrayed, but it doesn't automatically keep a character from being a CM.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#204108: Mar 4th 2020 at 8:33:42 AM

@ACW: That trait isn't really emphasized for Diovanni so nay

Yes to Sauron.

[down] ...your idea of a better ending is "Sauron slaughterfucks all of Middle-Earth?"

Okay, it'd wrap up a lot quicker than the original trilogy, but...

Edited by Scraggle on Mar 4th 2020 at 9:46:25 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#204109: Mar 4th 2020 at 8:36:54 AM

I'll use Eviler than Thou for Diovanni then.

Sure to Sauron (and a HELL of a lot better ending than the actual trilogy).

CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#204111: Mar 4th 2020 at 8:40:00 AM

[tup]sauron

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#204112: Mar 4th 2020 at 8:44:56 AM

[tup] game!Sauron.

By the way, apparently, according to the novelization, the Rise of Skywalker Palpatine was a clone. So... does this compromise his agency?

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#204113: Mar 4th 2020 at 8:47:15 AM

[up] Should we consider the novelization canon to the movie?

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#204114: Mar 4th 2020 at 8:49:42 AM

Even if we do, it's no more compromising than the first time Palpatine used clones in Dark Empire.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#204116: Mar 4th 2020 at 8:53:18 AM

I think we can treat Novel!Palpatine like we do Novel!Jerjerrod (sp?).

And yes, I've NEVER liked the LOTR ending: Gollum gets the ring, which gets destroyed not because of the heroes, but because Gollum HAPPENS to fall into Mt. Doom.

Edited by ACW on Mar 4th 2020 at 12:02:35 PM

xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#204117: Mar 4th 2020 at 8:57:02 AM

Quick writeup for Sauron:

  • The Lord of the Rings: Conquest: In the Evil Campaign, the Dark Lord Sauron sends the Nazgul to Mount Doom to kill Frodo and deal with Orc Rebels wanting to take the ring for themselves. Upon killing the Orc Rebels, Sauron uses their blood to resurrect the Witch King of Angmar, whom kills Frodo and retrieves the Ring for Sauron. Upon regaining the Ring, Sauron overruns Gondor, destroying Minas Tirith and Forcing Aragorn to flee to Weathertop; the population of Gondor being cannibalized by his Orc armies. He then resurrects Durin's Bane in Moria and sics it on Gimli. After conquering Moria, Sauron attack Weathertop and Rivendell, killing Aragorn and Legolas and taking Elrond's ring for himself. With all of Middle Earth under his control, Sauron attacks the Shire, with his forces killing a large number of Hobbits to lure out Gandalf and Treebeard so he can kill them, the corpse of the latter being set on fire and used to burn any Hobbit that dares resist Sauron's rule.

As for Clone Palps, nothing mitagating. For one I think that it's heavily implied Palpatine transmitted his consciousness into a new body. And even if that isn't the case, the Clone has enough independent thought to qualify on his own since Clones aren't morally compromised and can go against their programming and choose good and evil, as we see with the Clone Troopers. So in this case it's a Palpatine clone that chose to be as evil as the original Palps.

Edited by xie323 on Mar 4th 2020 at 9:04:21 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#204118: Mar 4th 2020 at 8:57:45 AM

Not relevant, but...yes, because it was a literal act of god that assisted them from Eru Illuvatar, as Tolkien made clear. It's foreshadowed "even Gollum may have a part to play" and it's made abundantly clear that the Ring cannot be destroyed of one's own free will. So Gollum seizes it in Mt. doom and in his celebration slips at the crucial moment. It's set up from literary the first half of Fellowship of the Ring

That said....no issues with Palpatine. It's not in the damn movie and for all I know it's "Palpatine transferred his soul to a clone." We're good.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#204119: Mar 4th 2020 at 9:02:04 AM

The first time that them never explaining shit to us has helped us keep a candidate. [lol]

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#204120: Mar 4th 2020 at 9:03:47 AM

[up][up] Huh, fascinating that. Guess that's what I get for only seeing the movies.

Anyway, we've got 3 games based on Lord of the Rings. Now, the question is, should they be grouped under Tolkien's Legendarium (the actual name) or Lord of the Rings (the well-known name)? I lean towards the latter myself.

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#204121: Mar 4th 2020 at 9:21:13 AM

Also, it's implied that Frodo caused Gollum to fall to his death with some of the commands he gave while he still had the Ring.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#204122: Mar 4th 2020 at 9:22:38 AM

  • Justice League/Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers: Brainiac and Lord Zedd team up to take Angel Grove. After finding himself on the DC Earth, Zedd convinces Brainiac to allow him to enlarge some of his collection as a distraction while Brainiac takes the Zords and Coins. The two then leave them stranded on the DC Earth as they escape to their dimension to take their home city. The Rangers and the Justice League arrive in time to see them collecting Angel Grove and planning to destroy the Earth. When a group infiltrates Brainiac's ship, Brainiac forces Cyborg to attack his friends. The group eventually find a room full of other captured cities. Taking Alpha 5 prisoner, Brainiac tries to turn him to his side, before trying to kill Superman with Kryptonite. Meanwhile Zedd leads a group of Monsters in helping Brainac and shrinks Zordon, so he can force Zordon to watch as he destroys the world he swore to protect.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#204123: Mar 4th 2020 at 9:23:14 AM

Should be team up to take over Angel Grove.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#204124: Mar 4th 2020 at 9:27:43 AM

[up] They team up to specifically collect the whole of Angel Grove and then destroy the Rangers' earth. So I don't think that wording would work.

Edit: However I guess that would be a form of taking over. So I guess it could work.

Edited by Bullman on Mar 4th 2020 at 11:53:14 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#204125: Mar 4th 2020 at 9:35:04 AM

There's also "The two then leave them stranded on the DC Earth as they escape to their dimension to take their home city." Too many uses of "they" and "their".

I've re-added it to the Drafts.


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