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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#204001: Mar 3rd 2020 at 2:17:49 PM

[up] How similar is he to Shakespeare's version?

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#204002: Mar 3rd 2020 at 2:19:38 PM

So uh you guys know this stuff is on the trope page about him right ?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
DolphZ Since: Mar, 2019
#204003: Mar 3rd 2020 at 2:26:39 PM

Slappy did not say he would murder them so stop saying that. He said he would hurt them not kill them read the book. He also helps the protagonits in multiple books. Many villains have killed people henious standard alone he fails.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#204005: Mar 3rd 2020 at 2:32:11 PM

Oh right. I know this guy. Wasn't he suspended before for having a weird Draco in Leather Pants thing.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#204006: Mar 3rd 2020 at 2:46:08 PM

I’m just going to let this one sort itself out.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#204007: Mar 3rd 2020 at 2:46:18 PM

[tup] Nyarly, Jack, Nyarly, Bulgakov, Havendish and Entity

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#204008: Mar 3rd 2020 at 2:57:11 PM

Anyway, a few pic suggestions:

Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Mar 3rd 2020 at 2:58:06 AM

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#204009: Mar 3rd 2020 at 3:02:05 PM

Exhales deeply the stuff I miss in a school day.

[tup] The Countess.

[tup] Reinhard Heydrich.

[tup] Tsanpo.

[tup] Susannah Coyle.

[tup] Nyarlathotep One.

[tup] Ordaal.

[tup] Maruunus Ki.

[tup] Nyarlathotep two.

[tup] Jack the Ripper and Nyalrathotep three.

[tup] Nikolai Bulgakov.

[tup] Havendish and the Entity.

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#204011: Mar 3rd 2020 at 3:07:59 PM

I'm fine with the latter 2 images, but Hamdo looks surprised that the guy's dead.

I'll submit this stuff tomorrow.

DolphZ Since: Mar, 2019
#204012: Mar 3rd 2020 at 3:09:36 PM

Also Slappy is a puppet so he techinally has no gender or age and isn't a pedophile. Arragotous, Mr Wood, Mary Ellen and Wally are all lampshaded on their pages to be worse than him and aren't under pure evil. Slappy could also be considered tragic as unlike Mr Wood he was implied to be a friendly dummy in the flashback in "I am Slappys Evil Twin". In "Night of the Living Dummy" the ends implies he was alive all along and never caused any trouble. This is likely because the evil of sorcerer went into him after Mr Wood died. So he kinda has a blue and orange moraility. It's implied he is not possesed by the spirit itself but but the evil thus making him unable to control his actions hence the Blue and Orange Morality.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#204013: Mar 3rd 2020 at 3:19:53 PM

He was brought to life with the soul of the evil sorcerer who crafted him from a coffin. No, unlike with King Jellyjam who does fall under that, Slappy has a human soul within him; Mr. Wood's worst actions were attempting to kill the heroes.

Slappy outright wants to make a preteen girl his bride and hits her calling it a "love tap." I am seriously having difficulty with believing your accusations when that is the little twist of the book. This almost reads like a desperate attempt at making Slappy sympathetic. But I'm stopping myself here.

Edited by AustinDR on Mar 3rd 2020 at 3:30:06 AM

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
#204015: Mar 3rd 2020 at 3:53:06 PM

Yes to Nyarlathotep, Jack the Ripper and Nyarlathotep, Bulgakov, Lord Havendish and the Entity. Keep Slappy.

Stay safe, Bullman.

[down]Yes to the Joker. How's the comic?

Edited by falcontalons on Mar 3rd 2020 at 4:02:09 AM

Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#204016: Mar 3rd 2020 at 3:57:12 PM

'Yes' to Havendish and the Entity. Keep Slappy.

Alrighty, I figure it's close enough to time for this one.

What's the work?

Published under DC's mature "Black Label", Joker: Killer Smile follows Dr. Ben Arnell, a psychiatrist who seeks to do the impossible: cure Gotham's most deranged criminal mind.

Though more competent, moral, and brilliant than the last therapist to tackle the Clown Prince of Crime, Arnell slowly comes to realize that even behind bars, chained up, with nothing but his voice to use as a weapon...the Joker is as deadly as ever.

Who is he?

You know him, you love him, you've seen him over 40 damn times on this thread, it's da Joker, baby!

Taking the disposition of Hannibal Lecter with a dash of lighthearted humor, Joker in this story is up to his old tricks, as he decides to make Dr. "Benji" Arnell his personal project, seeking to drive the man mad...

What has he done?

As shown in flashbacks, Joker is locked up in Arkham for good reason. In one flashback, we see Joker dancing in a crowded street of gassed-up civilians, with children explicitly caught in the mix.

In another flashback, Joker floods an entire subway train car, drowning all of the occupants....except one, who barely manages to survive the horrible incident. Joker proceeds to beat said survivor to death with a crowbar.

Now for the present, Joker—as is shown in The Reveal—has been a patient of Arnell's for years, and slowly but surely manipulated the man into trusting the clown while driving Arnell insane with his philosophical ramblings and the underlying implication that Joker is literally a walking insanity-emitter, capable of driving anyone around him to madness given a long enough period of time.

Arnell's wife and child eventually leave him thanks to his growing obsession with Joker, completely snapping Arnell's mind and leaving him solely in Joker's hands. Joker convinces Arnell to unlock his cell, at which point Joker kills his way through Arkham security and unlocks every single cell in Arkham, sparking a prison riot that leads to the inmates slaughtering a shit ton of guards.

Escaping with Arnell—further manipulating him into shooting an innocent man dead—Joker is confronted by Batman, and decides to use himself as a distraction while giving Arnell the new address of the man's wife and kid and sending him to them...once Arnell is gone? Joker giddily brags to Batman how Arnell is a "long-time project" of his, and that he has sent Arnell to murder his family, convincing Arnell he needs to "pay them back" for leaving him.

As Batman is forced to allow Joker to escape so as to stop Arnell, Arnell luckily snaps out of his insanity in time to not gun down his family, instead allowing Batman to arrest and lock him in Arkham, himself now needing treatment.

And the Joker? As the final pages of the comic show, he walks up to a little girl and personally gives her a gas balloon, with the imagery showing more balloons released all around, mimicing one of Joker's crimes shown in the flashbacks. And as the narration itself says: "...and (he) was free to spread joy and mirth. And they all lived happily ever after. The end."

Freudian Excuse or other redeeming features?

Joker...posits one. He goes on and on to Arnell about how the world "broke" him, and now it's broken Arnell too, and how they need to lash out at the world as revenge for such treatment.

The, ah, issue with this? Joker simultaneously brags that he enjoys bringing the "beauty" of his "art" to the world (read: murder), and as SOON as Arnell is out of earshot? Joker gloats to Batman that Arnell was just a "project" he's been working on, and happily sells out Arnell's location just to distract Bats and enable his own escape.

Joker truly behaves as if he "cares" about Arnell, but I think that final scene confirms what was implied the whole while, that Joker's just pulling a long-con of manipulation on Arnell to ruin his life and drag him down to Joker's depths. Joker is quite literally portrayed as an almost poisonous entity, corrupting and infecting everything around him with pieces of his madness just for his own entertainment, and Arnell is no exception.

Heinousness?

As a Black Label title, this technically is in a Elseworlds-style alternate universe, even if nothing in the comic besides the mature content would be out of place in the mainline DC universe, but I digress.

He's not the worst Joker out there, but with two counts of mass murder, starting a bloody prison riot, driving Arnell insane and sending him after his own family, and then ending the comic by showing he's getting back to his old tricks by preparing to Joker gas another streetload of people, even personally handing a little girl one of his balloons? He's easily heinous enough.

Final Verdict?

Eeeeeeyep.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
SkyCat32 (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#204018: Mar 3rd 2020 at 4:07:51 PM

[tup]Joker.

Why so serious?
papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#204020: Mar 3rd 2020 at 4:08:39 PM

This seems like a blatant and bizarre attempt to downplay Slappy's actions. What he does stands out for his work's heinous standard and he has agency. I'm voting to keep him and unless new info pops up, I'm not hashing out these arguments any more. Also yes to Ravok's Joker.

username2527 Since: Nov, 2013
#204022: Mar 3rd 2020 at 4:28:08 PM

Keep Slappy. Especially since it seems this Dolph user is a ban evader.

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#204023: Mar 3rd 2020 at 4:29:04 PM

Is anyone going to alert a mod about Dolph Z?

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#204024: Mar 3rd 2020 at 4:49:14 PM

[tup] to Joker. You know, I think the top half of that pic would be a decent addition to the image links.

Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Mar 3rd 2020 at 4:52:58 AM

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#204025: Mar 3rd 2020 at 5:38:23 PM

BTW, while Hellboy is still relevant—the image on the main page needs to be changed. The picture from the animated adaptation we're using is of very poor quality.

The comics weren't especially fruitful (Nimue has much less than you would expect), but I can offer Diovanni Atop a Mountain of Corpses as a potential replacement.


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