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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#203826: Mar 1st 2020 at 5:23:46 PM

As someone who decided to torture himself by watching Nutcracker in 3D for this thread last year, the Rat king does not count. He cares for his mother, being worried that one of the protagonists may hurt her and the last we see of him is him crying for her before running off.

Edited by papyru30 on Mar 1st 2020 at 6:24:19 AM

SkyCat32 (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#203828: Mar 1st 2020 at 6:01:30 PM

By the way, the image for Monster.Law And Order is awaiting mod integration, so we may wanna find a quote from a different candidate.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#203829: Mar 1st 2020 at 6:08:57 PM

@papyru Haven’t seen it myself, (only the NC review and subsequent First Viewing), but oh God man I’m sorry.

Based on the EP, [tup] to that version of Hans. I take it everything else is the same about him otherwise?

SkyCat32 (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#203830: Mar 1st 2020 at 6:20:50 PM

The biggest difference is that this version of Hans is more blatantly callous in his disregard for others, and is more vindictive.

Other than that, his motivations are not dissimilar from the movie, and while his deeds manifest themselves slightly differently, they both show a certain self centred nature.

However, this version comes off as crueler and more vindictive compared to the already ruthless (albeit charming) movie version.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Mar 1st 2020 at 9:24:50 AM

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#203831: Mar 1st 2020 at 6:24:43 PM

[tup] Hans, Gen'un and Upyr

[tdown] Kool

Abstain on Chuckie until I get the chance to hear the songs myself.

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#203832: Mar 1st 2020 at 6:35:09 PM

I'll look for a L&O quote, the one about Victor Paul Gitano that's partially quoted in his write up comes to mind.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#203833: Mar 1st 2020 at 7:21:56 PM

Another before a litany of Cthulhu posts me and some others are working on. I have another version of Ming the Merciless from the King!Dynamite universe, which incorporates Flash Gordon with other characters such as the Phantom, Mandrake the Magician and Prince Valiant. This one spans a number of titles, released under the Dynamite banner, co-produced by King Comics and entirely separate from Zeitgeist.

Who is Ming the Merciless? What has he done?

The tyrant ruler of Mongo as ever, Ming debuts as the mastermind behind the comic universe's debut series, King's Watch. Here Ming launches an EMP wave to cripple the planet's technology (a tactic he's used on other planets before), sending airplanes out of the sky and killing hospitals full of people all across the planet as he idly remarks "I realize this will cull the weak among you—oh well." Then, when the planet's been blacked out, Ming has his forces swoop into the weakened cities and start razing the shit out of them. He's foiled by Flash Gordon, but...

In the 2014 Flash Gordon series, Ming continues his usual process and we get quite a bit of detail into the usual atrocities of his empire (slavery, torture, forcing people to fight to the death in gladiator games, entire planets being wiped out, yada yada) as we learn Ming's goal in this series resolves around stealing the enigmatic Quantum Crystals that would allow him to take over the universe. Ming tricked the owners of these crystals into opening portals to their planets for him under the expectation of reward—where Ming "rewards" them by having his troops fly in and raze the shit out of the planets. Ming also engages horrific experimentation and slavery, having innocents rounded up and then violently tortured into becoming Beast-Men, an agonizing process that destroys their minds and leaves them utter slaves of Ming (if, of course, they don't just die). Well over four-million have been subjected to this.

Ming offhandedly vaporizes a failed minion the very first panel he's in, has another eaten by a monster later (and then snaps the neck of another a few pages after that), and continues to order Flash killed no matter what, at one point ordering an entire city of his gassed to death just to kill Flash. Ming captures the leader of the Hawkpeople and tortures him in front of his people to try and get answers, but Flash arrives and sticks the bastard through with a spear. Unfortunately, Ming is an ample believer in Doombots and his decoy melts...

King: Flash Gordon. Ming, again, introduces himself being as terrible a boss as he can by having a failed squad of soldiers gunned down ("Killing us won't help the search, Sir!" "Nor will it impede it." zapzapzap). Ming tracks down Flash and his allies to the planet of Coralia, initially trying to reason with its queen, Darya, to hand them over. When Darya helps them, instead, Ming flies into a fury and orders all of Coralia annihilated, Darya brought to die agonized on his throne room floor and Flash and his allies brought to him so he can torture them "for the rest of time." He fails this time...

...but in King's Quest, the next crossover, he succeeds. When Ming is done with Coralia, the otherwise underwater planet has been dried up and its population annihilated to all but three survivors. Ming has Darya forced to fight Dale Arden to the death, but Ming spares the loser—Darya—for a much worse fate. Ming has Darya's water-breathing organs removed from her while she's alive, seared, and then eats them in front of Arden ("Try it? No? A pity. A rarer delicacy you'll not find..."). Ming then has Darya infused with lungs and proceeds to have her tortured, firstly by waterboarding her—an incredibly godawful torture for someone who used to breathe water. Ming has Darya sadistically broken over a long, long period of time, tortured and forced to kill other slaves for so long Darya's nothing more than a shattered slave at the end of it all.

Ming himself attempts to forcefully wed Arden (and we have a great nod to the movie when Ming pledges to make her his "Empress of the Hour"). When Arden resists Ming's lecherous advances, Ming tries to throw her into a mystical void. Arden turns the tables and throws Ming in there, instead, seemingly killing him...until Ming tricks Mandrake into letting him free.

Final series, King's Cross: Ming teleports an entire continent from Mongo onto Earth, using violent monsters from it to butcher entire naval armadas and thousands of people. Ming finally reveals his intent to bomb all of humanity with missiles full of gas that forcibly twist them into Beast-Men, pressuring humanity to surrender. Even when they start to surrender, Ming decides to start bombing cities he's already gassed again, under the logic of "you dropped two atomic bombs on Japan, no?" The heroes fight back and Ming is defeated. Ming even seems to have a Graceful Loser moment and genuinely bids the heroes farewell as they escape, as he pulls his continent away...

...as he pulls off his contingency plan and starts to terraform Mars instead to become Earth's "neighbor," with a promise he'll be visiting Earth very soon!

Well. If we ever get a sequel—doesn't appear one's come out since like 2016—maybe then, but until then? That's all, folks!

Any mitigating factors?

If you've gotten familiar with Ming by now, you should know the answer.

Conclusion?

Keeeeeeeper.

In other news: King!Ming does a horrible thing.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#203834: Mar 1st 2020 at 7:23:08 PM

Yes. Only Scraggle could bring King Ming as a thing.

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#203836: Mar 1st 2020 at 7:26:52 PM

[tup] to yet another Ming. Seems like he's not called "the Merciless" for nothing.

Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Mar 1st 2020 at 7:30:08 AM

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#203837: Mar 1st 2020 at 7:28:16 PM

Well, in the comic's own words, he's certainly not Ming the Merciful...

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#203840: Mar 1st 2020 at 7:49:48 PM

Let me kick off a little collab, too:

What's the work?

Kthulhu Reich is a book by Ken Asamatsu, short stories connected to the Nazis and utilizing the Cthulhu mythos all together. Loosely connected with common themes, they also bring us a number of rather vicious monsters all around. The first is the story Feast of the Children Of the Night...when a German squadron is in the Carpathians, deep in Romania, where the nightlife is a dark thing indeed. Hjalmar Weil, commanding officer, is noticing odd things in the forests and directed to a little castle nearby, on the Poplar Hill, populated by the enticing, beautiful countess Katarina...

Who is Katarina?

An ancient vampire, Katarina Dracula is the wife of Vlad Tepes (or his descendant) and a worshiper of the Old One Tsathoggua who has been sealed in her home with a magic stone guarded in the village....which seals her minions and children. When Weil and men arrive, Katarina is nothing but charming and pleasant...and mentions her children nearby...however, she then proceeds to bewitch the Germans...

It's revealed Katarina is a vicious predator who kills whoever she can get away with, for sustenance and pleasure, hoping to enact darker wills upon the countryside with Tsathoggua....with the Germans? She has them storm the local village and enact the old ways of war she loves to much. Katarina has them rape, pillage and burn, quite literally....people are violated and then massacred, butchered en masse and gunned down to destroy the guardianship they have on the stone...freeing Katarina and children, who plots to have the nation ravaged by Tsathoggua.

With the Germans having served their purpose...Katarina summons her children and has them devoured, saving Weil for last. The story ends with the horrific abominations descending on him, him conscious until the end...

Mitigating qualities?

for heinousness...this is a dark one, with tons of evil Nazis, a past story with Jack the Ripper, otherworldly monsters...but for a backwoods vampire, Katarina gets up to a ton of nastiness, having a village raped and slaughtered, plotting to unleash Tsathoggua on the world, the vampire predation and mind-raping the Germans before disposing of them. She's charming and pleasant to a fault, but this is just a mask for the predator she is. She mentions her husband once, but never indicates love, nor for her children at all....she's just a monster and Old One fanatic.

Conclusion?

Yes to Countess Dracula.

lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#203841: Mar 1st 2020 at 7:52:01 PM

Random question, I know the Archie Sonic Comics' original version of Robotnik qualified as a CM despite being played for laughs early on, but does Robo-Robotnik/Eggman from ish 75 on qualify too? I searched the thread and forums but got lost in the sea of prospective Eggmen.

The Protomen enhanced my life.
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#203842: Mar 1st 2020 at 7:55:30 PM

I wouldn't think so, no. IIRC He's a disposable clone that doesn't really do much on his own accord before he's Killed Off for Real again.

Ooh, and yes to the good Countess. We have like five more coming from this anthology just so we all know

Edited by Scraggle on Mar 1st 2020 at 8:55:59 AM

lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#203843: Mar 1st 2020 at 8:01:35 PM

Robo-Robotnik was a Replacement Goldfish for the original Robotnik who died in Endgame and was the main villain more-or-less from 75 to the end of the comic. He came from another dimension and nuked his homeworld, killing his Sonic and everyone else there, before going to our Sonic's world to become Eggman.

Ian Flynn's run treats him as basically the same Robotnik as the first but they're separate entities; the clone thing was because he had a backup Eggman body waiting when his original was destroyed by acid. There was a period where various bodies of his kept getting destroyed but it was still the same mind body-swapping, and the comic treats him as overall more dangerous than the original.

The wiki has more info.

EDIT: He doesn't qualify thanks to showing regret over having Mecha self-destruct. Oh well. Now if anyone else wonders I can point them to this page!

Edited by lalalei2001 on Mar 1st 2020 at 8:04:24 AM

The Protomen enhanced my life.
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#203846: Mar 1st 2020 at 8:06:00 PM

@Scraggle

I think lala means Archie Eggman from #75 onwards. Since he was also referred to as Robo Robotnik

Still, by the time of the Super Genesis Wave, he gets a bunch of mitigating factors

Edited by Awesomekid42 on Mar 1st 2020 at 11:06:57 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
RPGKnight45 Since: Feb, 2020
#203848: Mar 1st 2020 at 8:14:01 PM

Does anyone mind to check out Vampires Dawn? We already had someone who is currently checking out Demon Legacy, so someone might do this.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#203849: Mar 1st 2020 at 8:14:31 PM

Ooooh, you're not referring to the clone. No, Robo-Robotnik doesn't count—sad as I am to say. We've had to shoot him down a few times because of redeeming qualities, which is unfortunate because tampering with the Super Genesis Wave indirectly makes him the biggest mass murderer in the franchise's history.

Edited by Scraggle on Mar 1st 2020 at 9:18:13 AM

RPGKnight45 Since: Feb, 2020
#203850: Mar 1st 2020 at 8:18:51 PM

Anyone mind to add Shan Yu and Akainu to the Never Again List?

For the latter, we had Griffith added. Unless clear new infos come, Akainu isn't cut.


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