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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#203626: Feb 29th 2020 at 7:27:58 PM

[tup] Hitler III.

I'd say keep Cy, Floyd, and Foyet, but no sleep lost over axing the others.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#203627: Feb 29th 2020 at 7:33:45 PM

[up][up] Understatement of the millennium.

Edited by Scraggle on Feb 29th 2020 at 8:33:57 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#203628: Feb 29th 2020 at 7:39:43 PM

I'm not going to know the ins and outs of the show as well as I could but from reading his entry I don't think Floyd would be a great loss. He's got the nasty added crime of tricking cops into eating a victim but the cannibalizing people while alive and forcing them to partake just chalks up to nasty torture. Horrible? Yes but looking over the other entries, guy's got stiff competition from other horrible tortures who have a larger volume of victims. Contrast to others with a really nasty niche like Grandpa Race War at the top.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#203629: Feb 29th 2020 at 8:00:06 PM

I kind of disagree there, but that's a fair assessment.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#203630: Feb 29th 2020 at 8:11:20 PM

If it was anything else I'd say yes to him but I don't think we need to restate how fucked the HS is at this point. Working in conjunction with that is the fact that unlike Dragon Ball, Warhammer or even James Bond, there are no super powers or bad guys with entire nations under their control, which shrinks the resource gap between the top and the bottom.

Edited by 43110 on Feb 29th 2020 at 11:11:51 AM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#203631: Feb 29th 2020 at 8:19:32 PM

Like I said, it is a fair assessment.

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#203632: Feb 29th 2020 at 8:38:31 PM

Reiterating my keep vote for Cy, and mulling it over, I'm leaning keep on Floyd and Foyet too. Abstain on Ramos.

Draxterrus An Eldritch Troper Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
An Eldritch Troper
#203633: Feb 29th 2020 at 8:49:31 PM

I don’t know if how off-topic this is but I’m torn as to how NCIS and Hawaii Five-0 would compare to Criminal Minds. The entries for NCIS/Hawaii Five-0 can be found at Bellisarioverse. Some of these entries have characters who try to kill hundreds or thousands and could probably give Criminal Minds a run for its money but I’d say that the few serial killers there (Boone, Landis, Bright, etc.) are outdone by Criminal Minds’ standard.

Edited by Draxterrus on Mar 1st 2020 at 12:52:32 AM

Humanity is defined by its absurdity, and I am no exception.
MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#203634: Feb 29th 2020 at 9:13:00 PM

Myeh. Staying out of this.

By the way, ~The Immortal Angel Newton, you said that Haruka Enokida is probably our first Idol Singer CM, but we actually already had Sing Love aka White Rock Shooter before that. In fact, I mentioned her way back. So now we have TWO idol singer keepers. Just an interesting fact.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#203635: Feb 29th 2020 at 9:15:33 PM

[tup] Addie

[up] You could say that the Supernova girl is the first fully human Idol CM tho

Edited by KazuyaProta on Feb 29th 2020 at 12:16:01 PM

Watch me destroying my country
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#203636: Feb 29th 2020 at 9:17:42 PM

Uh actually cut Ramos if that's true.

I'd be okay with keeping cy actually upon sleeping on it.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
SkyCat32 (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#203637: Feb 29th 2020 at 9:49:08 PM

[tup] Addie.

Not involving myself in the criminal minds discussion due to relative lack of familiarity with the work.

DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#203638: Feb 29th 2020 at 9:54:03 PM

[tup] Addie, Beast, Michael, Dormammu and Floyd

[tdown] Ardent, Ultron, Robotnik and Ramos

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#203639: Feb 29th 2020 at 9:58:56 PM

Also [tup]addie aka hitler's even douchier grandson

Edited by miraculous on Feb 29th 2020 at 10:01:40 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#203640: Feb 29th 2020 at 10:04:17 PM

Alright, last Hellboy candidate! I give you Landis Pope, the second Black Flame, one of the overarching villains of the B.P.R.D. series.

Who is the Black Flame? What has he done?

Landis Pope, introduced in BPRD: The Black Flame, is the CEO of the Zinco Corporation experimenting in dark sorcery and breeding frog monsters. Pope initially isn't that bad; he's a power-hungry control freak, which will define his character for the rest of the comic, but he's still an arsehole, arbitrarily firing his entire board of directors and personally murdering an entire BPRD squad, one of which is Liz's friend Roger, a living homunculus. Pope, fusing himself with the armor of a fiendish entity from the second World War called the Black Flame, unleashes his frog monsters to cause havoc and tries to resurrect their deity, the monstrous Kartha-Hem, to control it. Except Pope can't control it and he realizes he's been used as a pawn for a greater destiny, resulting in him being dragged off by frog demons.

Enter King of Fear. Landis Pope was last seen in the throngs of regret and remorse...all of which he's long cast aside. Pope comes to realize his ambitions were sloppy and not thought through enough, which is the catalyst for Pope to throw away the last of his humanity and embrace becoming the Black Flame. Landis gets into the good graces of the King of Fear, the ruler of a race of underground people who saved Landis' life, by promising to help the King of Fear and his people get revenge on humanity. Except he doesn't give a shit about the King of Fear, and casually murders him when the King of Fear realizes he's been used as a pawn. Landis Pope wants to exploit the Kartha-Hem again, but not to try and control it. Pope merely wants it and its frog monsters to scourge the Earth and kill all humanity, leaving a race of subhuman frogs for him to rule over. Liz, still not over the Roger incident, vaporizes him in a giant plume of flame.

Pope's final and nastiest outing comes toward BPRD's finale, during the Hell on Earth series as the Earth is being ravaged. Pope is resurrected by his loyal Zinco right-hand, Isaiah Marsten, and Pope promptly returns to old habits. Pope takes over the remains of New York City and sets himself up as a god, enslaving the population and having anyone who defies him massacred. Pope—fully falling back into old habits, and with none of the moral restraints this time around—decides to control the Ogdru Jahad himself, to use them to attain ultimate power and cause an absolute apocalypse.

Pope summons hundreds of eldritch monsters all across the world to start massacring as many people as they can, annihilating cities the world over and culling perhaps millions of people. When Liz returns to fight him, Pope gleefully taunts her that his power is fused with his subjects, and Liz can't kill him without first killing every innocent civilian in New York. Pope unleashes a burst of energy that ravages what remains of New York even more, killing off more of the scattered survivors as Liz and Pope have their final battle. Pope is finally annihilated by Liz after a pitched final fight, leaving nothing but a charred suit and skull.

Any mitigating factors?

Pope is a bit of a weird case because he very much has a My God, What Have I Done? moment the first time he tries to awaken a eldritch horror, which leads to him being dragged off to his apparent doom and left "sick and broken" on the King of Fear's doorstep. Thing is...the comic makes a repeated point of pointing out how far Landis Pope has changed from that moment, and not only that, he's done it of his own volition. The Ogdru Jahad didn't corrupt him. The Black Flame armor itself had nothing to do with it. There's no tragic or understandable reason for it. He starts off as a power-hungry shitbag with standards, and then throws away those standards. His occasionally-inconsistent motivations aside, Pope throws away everything that once makes him decent for the sake of power, belittling how small-minded he used to be and gleefully sneering when Liz calls him out on the first moment he begged her for help that "I changed. You did not."

Nothing else to note. He treats Marsten well, but dismisses his brutal death with alarming disdain. His body count is through the roof for a Hellboy villain, one of the biggest in the entire series, and his multiple attempts at kickstarting the end of the world —again, while not necessarily unique for HB baddies—well pushes him up to live with the worst-of-the-worst.

Conclusion?

Pope is a keeper in the end. Any decency he might have is snuffed out by the beginning of his second arc and he gets worse from there.

Edited by Scraggle on Feb 29th 2020 at 11:05:26 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#203641: Feb 29th 2020 at 10:10:10 PM

[tup]Landis

How does liz kill him without taking out the citizens in New York he's connected to?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#203642: Feb 29th 2020 at 10:12:11 PM

His power's cut off in the middle of their fight via a ritual helped by the side characters—Landis starts off with a clear edge, but after a few minutes Liz notes he's struggling to even keep him

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#203646: Feb 29th 2020 at 10:39:37 PM

[tup]Adolf "Addie" Hitler III and Landis Pope

Draxterrus An Eldritch Troper Since: May, 2019 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
An Eldritch Troper
#203647: Feb 29th 2020 at 10:53:31 PM

I questioned earlier on as to whether NCIS/Hawaii Five-0 could compare to Criminal Minds at this post. There was no response, so I decide to post it again.

Humanity is defined by its absurdity, and I am no exception.
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#203648: Feb 29th 2020 at 10:58:19 PM

That sounds like a PM question

Things are really about to get Fun around here
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
#203650: Feb 29th 2020 at 10:58:50 PM

[up][up][up] Pretty sure NCIS is much, much more Lighter and Softer.

[tup] Hitler and Pope

Edited by TheMadCr0w on Feb 29th 2020 at 3:59:22 PM


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