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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#203501: Feb 29th 2020 at 6:10:55 AM

[tup] to Grag Ardent.

Happy birthday for yesterday Kaz.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#203502: Feb 29th 2020 at 6:58:38 AM

Yes to Ardent. And PM away, Falcon

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#203503: Feb 29th 2020 at 7:09:01 AM

Sure to Ardent.

May not hurt to have a Discworld page, organized by sub-series.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#203504: Feb 29th 2020 at 7:11:06 AM

Plus theirs still adaptations of the work we haven't discussed as well. And their doing a new (admitinglyy In Name Only from what I've heard) tv show based on discworld called the watch.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#203506: Feb 29th 2020 at 7:40:52 AM

I have to vote [tdown] to Ardent due to the stuff with Albrecht. The book explicitly says that while he's imprisoned he's treated quite well, he's given good food and drink and books to read. Ardent also goes to his cell to try to convince Albrecht to join him, even though he has no real reason to. That, along with some lines in the book stating that Albrecht was a mentor of sorts to Ardent, implies to me some genuine respect for him.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#203507: Feb 29th 2020 at 7:41:16 AM

For Usagi Yojimbo.

  • General Fujii was the head of a gang that took over a village. They reduced the workers to slaves, and ordered them to farm and cultivate for long hours. They would continue to do this until the tax collector came, at which point they would just kill all the villagers and go to another town. When Usagi infiltrates them, he's discovered and tortured, with Fujii taking his swords. When the peasants revolt, they slaughter their way through them, and Fujii abandons most of his men to die or face the police. He and his loyal Dragon take over another gang and launch raids on a village, where he almost murders the elderly headsman for refusing them. When the heroes attack the gang to take him down, he abandons his dragon to run. He is such a bastard that even the aforementioned gang becomes repulsed by him. Usagi actually repeatedly calls him a "monster".
    Fujii: "Yes, I suppose I am."

Now this dude sounds like a pretty easy keep but the last line and quote lines are awkward . Could we remove them

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#203508: Feb 29th 2020 at 7:41:51 AM

Can you elaborate on that one, Markle?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#203509: Feb 29th 2020 at 7:44:17 AM

I think the General was one of Lighty's way back when.

Also, Devilman Image Pickin' is up.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#203510: Feb 29th 2020 at 7:50:15 AM

I'm not contesting him. I'm asking if we could remove the last two lines.

Oh yeah he did all three if I remember correctly.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
captainmarkle Limited Patients from Behind you Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#203511: Feb 29th 2020 at 7:59:22 AM

@Kaz: Happy belated birthday!

@ACW: I'll wait a bit longer before I do a draft for Ardent, but that idea sounds good (TBD if we get any more votes one way or the other, I'm not convinced Ardent's being sincere on Albrecht given how quickly he'll kill a perceived traitor). We might need to note for Ardent - if he gets approved - that he goes across both Watch and Moist von Lipwig's work, but beyond that I'm not seeing any further issues, especially as I'm doubtful anyone else counts from the books now (though I would be interested to hear if anyone else does an EP).

My next EP is for Ultron, the Arc Villain for Chapter 4 (which is essentially two chapters in one) of Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3: The Black Order (despite the 3 in the title, it's a Continuity Reboot so doesn't count the Ultron from Marvel: Ultimate Alliance. All rejoice, for this EP is shorter.

Who is Ultron?

Ultron, as always, is a Killer Robot and Omnicidal Maniac that was designed by Hank Pym (only referenced in the backstory / codex entry, not present in person) with the intent of helping the Avengers, but Turned Against Their Masters and became one of their greatest threats throughout their time together. He also has a particular beef with the Vision, his "child", as well as Tony Stark. The game's subtitles use the phrase "Indestructable [sic] Android. Corrupt Programming" to describe him.

What does Ultron do?

Ultron makes his first appearance in the game at the start of Chapter 4, after the Alliance has regrouped at Avengers Tower to study the ISO-8 they found from the Kingpin (after having initially thought he had an Infinity Stone) and store the two Stones (Space and Time) they already have. While Vision and Iron Man are busy doing this, and then talking with the player, Ultron hacks into Avengers Tower, stopping JARVIS from overriding this and activating Iron Man's extra suits of armour/drones with the intent of having them massacre everyone inside. He starts by trapping the Player Characters and Vision in the upper floor in the lab and siccing the drones on them, only for this to be thwarted when the party kicks him out and reactivate the terminal. Ultron then appears as a hologram in front of Vision and Stark, declaring "Mankind had its chance to rule, Avengers, but this world is long overdue . . . an upgrade" before going on to take over the rest of the tower's security systems, including barriers and laser grids (Resident Evil film style), forcing the heroes to slog through a few waves of Iron Man drones and restore functionality to the tower as they go, freeing it from Ultron's control. Throughout this part of the level, Ultron declares that humanity is obsolete, with him having found "a means to evolve machine-kind beyond our programming" and declaring his intent to "remove [humanity] from service, permanently".

As the team keep fighting on, he then deploys his own drones to join the fray and attempts to trap Wasp in the living quarters and have his own Mecha-Mooks drones Zerg Rush her to try and kill her; he simultaneously tries to delay the heroes going through the first training room (by using its facilities against them) in a bid to stop her being rescued, though this predictably fails as Wasp manages to hold her own long enough. As the team and Wasp beat his drones back, she comments that Ultron's drones seem unusually "alive", so Vision does some scans on them as he tries to get the tower infrastructure back up. The slog continues, through yet another training room with much of the same, until the team get to the helipad (or whatever a Quinjet lands on) to confront Ultron in person, as well as his Elite Mooks of robot bodyguards... only for it to turn out Ultron has the Mind Stone in his possession. He declares that he "finally [understands]" what the human mind is meant to do after he was designed to emulate it, but instead of having come to a realisation about Humans Are Special, he deems the human mind "irreparably flawed" and in need of being overwritten. Sticking the Mind Stone into his head, he attacks and battle commences. Throughout his boss fight (with even more drones callously thrown at the party), he claims that the Stone has now uplifted his artificial mind and made him realise just how primitive he finds humanity now he is capable of (what he deems) genuine thought, declaring his intent to wipe them out again to kickstart "the age of Ultron". The heroes eventually manage to beat him in spite of the Mind Stone, and his body suffers irreparable damage, seeming to spell the end.

NOPE! He transfers his mind out of his now-useless metal husk. Searching for a vessel, he finds the stored-away body of Ultimo, a giant metallic android designed by an unspecified (in-game at any rate) alien race to lay waste to Earth which Tony had beaten in the past and stored away, which he comes to regret. As Ultimo's mind has been erased, Ultron has no problem taking the body over, resuming where he left off and mocking Tony for his hubris before marching towards the tower, still intent on slaughtering the heroes and then levelling the entire city. The march is mostly on road, but it gets mentioned offhandedly that while marching he crushed, among other things, a restaurant (not sure that's Offscreen Villainy as we see his marching, if not the squashing?) Thankfully, Hawkeye and Ant-Man (Scott Lang) arrive to help save the day, managing to make it onto the tower safely despite Ultron blasting their jet to pieces. Hawkeye then fires an arrow at Ultimo, which propels Scott far enough towards Ultimo that he can turn to Giant-Man and fights with Ultimo to hold him off. The heroes then rush up the tower (which Ultimo repeatedly fires at with plasma blasts), while Vision uses the aforementioned ISO-8 looted from Kingpin etc. and data from Ultron's sentries to determine weaknesses in his firewall, since Ultimo might not be stoppable otherwise.

Once the heroes arrive at the top of Avengers tower, Vision and Scott manage to freeze Ultimo temporarily while the team bombards the giant robot with Stark Industry anti-air, which repeats twice as Ultron rewrites his code and the heroes have to adapt. Throughout this second boss fight, Ultron tries to guilt-trip Vision into his side by saying "you bring shame to your artificial brethren, Vision", though this unsurprisingly does not work and Scott points out Vision's the only one making robots look good right now. He also attempts to bribe the team into thinking they will have their minds "permanently upgrade[d]", which immediately is revealed to be a false promise when he vows to command all mechanical life, and then mankind. Once his final firewall goes down, Ultron is left vulnerable to Vision, who ignores his final appeal for an alliance and then traps him inside the Mind Stone, seemingly for good. This ends his involvement in the story... although Chapter 5 kicks off once the heroes discover that in the process of activating Ultimo, he also accidentally awoke the Sentinels, who are heading to Xavier's Mansion.

Heinousness?

Ultron may not be the Big Bad, as that "honour" goes to Thanos, the Mad Titan, and every villain makes a stab at killing the heroes. However, despite being lower in scale to Thanos and only an Arc Villain, he essentially has two chapters to himself (chapter 4 is best thought of as one big chapter and a smaller one merged together), which is more than the other villains have (bar the Black Order, who are in Thanos's servitude anyway). His goals are grander than that of most other chapter-only villains (bar Dormammu, for whom I'll do a separate EP down the line, and Dormammu is a Dimension Lord): the total extermination of humanity (he at one point says he wants to command them but, given his history in the comics of zombie-robots, the two might not be mutually exclusive), and something the Mind Stone, plus control of Ultimo, give him a genuine chance of pulling off.

Mitigating Factors

Big "no". Ultron claims to have benign intentions, and when possessing Ultimo he states his actions are partly out of revenge for "machines you discard so carelessly", but he's very quick to turn against Vision once the latter refuses We Can Rule Together, and for all his talk of uplifting machinery he doesn't care to uplift the drones much; even when the Mind Stone does it for him, he willingly sends in his own troops to Zerg Rush to keep his own plans going and save his own artificial skin. Ultimately, his concern is commanding mechanical life, not helping it.

Aside from that, even if he claimed his processing power was limited by his being artificial (and this is dubious given his arrogance and sadism), his interaction with the Mind Stone was close enough to genuine thought that it doesn't excuse his sadism one way or another. Contrast with Vision, who's heroic enough and capable of free will despite being an artificial being, while Ultron willingly turned to attempted murder of the human race.

The incident with Hank Pym and his creation IS Offscreen Villainy, as is the direct showing of collateral damage (I'm not sure what the rules are here for a giant monster walking through a city uncaring of whom they crush) but what he does onscreen is enough for me to have tried an EP.

Conclusion

I gave this some thought, but given his Arc Villain status I think Ultron might well be a [tup]here given his endgame.

Trans rights are human rights. If you don't think that, please leave.
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#203512: Feb 29th 2020 at 8:04:58 AM

Not sure on ultron. A lot of this sounds like it's too much in the planning stAges and just targeting the heroes without him really doing much.

Edited by miraculous on Feb 29th 2020 at 8:08:00 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#203513: Feb 29th 2020 at 8:06:52 AM

I've made the request for Usagi.

My issue with Ultron: "he at one point says he wants to command them but, given his history in the comics of zombie-robots, the two might not be mutually exclusive"...seems like an issue, but I'm still inclined to vote keep. Third incarnation for Jim Meskimen, who now joins Hamill as having 3 incarnations of a single CM.

So unless something changes, looks like the 4 from Criminal Minds will be cut (Cy had a few keep votes, but a majority voted cut), while everyone else stays (someone can count, but I think Ramos was fairly evenly split; none of the others had more than 1 or 2 votes to cut).

Anyone got a possible image to replace Cy? Pinging ~Age Of Trope Empire; maybe there's a good image from the Korean series?

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#203514: Feb 29th 2020 at 8:10:20 AM

Leaning towards yes on Ultron. But I would like to hear from a second person who has played the game.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#203515: Feb 29th 2020 at 8:23:34 AM

Slight [tup] to Ultron

I just finished watching Hunters, so PM me for discussion cause oh boy, there are some bad motherfuckers on that show. Me and Lighty will be going more into detail next Thursday.

As for The Toadman Saga, do you think Shadowbeast should come before or after Toadman?

  • The Toadman Saga:
    • Keith "Toadman" Lesler was a Serial Killer who was executed for murdering dozens of children. On the brink of death, the Shadowbeast offers him the opportunity to return every 30 years. In the first part, he targets Abram Linfeld, beheading his two friends Donny and Angie and tying there heads to his waist. He then attacks Abram, chopping off his leg, the former only surviving thanks to a crate of fireworks. In the second part, a policeman, Tyler Smith, comes to investigate the murders. When he and local beat cop Doyle Wheeler head down to the mine shaft, Doyle, under the influence of the Shadowbeast, attacks Tyler. When this fails, The Toadman beheads Doyle, and then forces Tyler to free the Shadowbeast.
    • The aforementioned Shadowbeast is an ancient alien who came to earth and brought upon chaos and havoc, viewing himself as a god. Having been sealed away after murdering and mutilating children, the Shadowbeast made a deal with Keith “Toadman” Lesler to be resurrected every 30 years to act as his servant. Responsible for Keith’s murders and possessions, the Shadowbeast manipulates those into releasing him from his prison, and when one person refused, he summons Keith to kill him, forcing his friend to free him and doom the world.

[down] Yeah true. Kind of a stupid question now that I think about it.

Edited by therealjackieboy on Feb 29th 2020 at 8:26:13 AM

It's Spooky Month!
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#203516: Feb 29th 2020 at 8:24:56 AM

Uh Toadman is who the series is named after. Seems appropriate to put him first.

Edited by miraculous on Feb 29th 2020 at 8:27:44 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#203517: Feb 29th 2020 at 8:35:41 AM

Can we discuss Ardent more? Killing a traitor quick doesn't really...erase potential care for Albrecht unless he kills Albrecht quick.

Ultron likewise unsure of.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#203518: Feb 29th 2020 at 8:43:59 AM

I’ll think on Ultron but not feeling it from Ardent. Sounds like there’s a bit too much regret in things having to go the way they did with his former friend for me to ignore.

TommyFresh Since: Aug, 2013
#203519: Feb 29th 2020 at 8:47:50 AM

I need to think about Ultron some more, I could maybe see giving him a weak yes but I'm not sure. And with Ardent, the fact that he usually doesn't hesitate to kill perceived traitors is what makes me think his respect for Albrecht is genuine. He doesn't kill him quickly and it's never implied that he will have him killed at any point. The grags are mentioned to have no problem torturing people so the fact that Ardent treats Albrecht well as a prisoner and simply tries to convince him to join the grags by arguing with him in his cell is noticeable.

falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
#203520: Feb 29th 2020 at 8:52:43 AM

I'll read Ultron's EP later, but I'll switch to a no on Ardent; the fact that the book calls Albrecht Ardent's mentor makes me think that Ardent genuinely cares for him.

EDIT: After reading the EP, I'll say no to Ultron.

Edited by falcontalons on Feb 29th 2020 at 8:58:40 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#203521: Feb 29th 2020 at 8:55:00 AM

Switching to no on Ardent. Seems like legit care.

Edited by Bullman on Feb 29th 2020 at 10:55:46 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#203522: Feb 29th 2020 at 8:56:20 AM

With ultron. It sounds like he's all talk rather you know doing. Everything in here is not particularly impressive. Even the devastation to the city sounds like it glosses over any potential loss of life.

[tdown]Ardent

Edited by miraculous on Feb 29th 2020 at 8:59:39 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
captainmarkle Limited Patients from Behind you Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#203523: Feb 29th 2020 at 9:05:39 AM

@Tommy - thanks. I had re-read both Thud and Steam while writing the EP to make sure it all made sense, but I clearly forgot that bit from the first time and then missed it when trying to make sure I cited the moments properly; I'd seen him get imprisoned but I honestly had missed the books etc, thinking it was just Pragmatic Villainy. Thanks for catching that.

In that case, I withdraw my nomination for Ardent - curse you, Albrechtsson /s

In all seriousness, no harm, no foul. I've got more EPs cooking and ready to go up for discussion soon, I'll just hold them to avoid spamming the board.

Trans rights are human rights. If you don't think that, please leave.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#203524: Feb 29th 2020 at 9:14:33 AM

All good, man. Glad we could discuss it there!

Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#203525: Feb 29th 2020 at 9:25:30 AM

[tup] Ken and [tdown] Ardent.

Unrelated my sister just had a gender reveal, and I have a nephew on the way!

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."

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