During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
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We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Cut them all, I guess. Good to see Criminal Minds Syndrome is still alive and well. And the pseudo-Trope Namer to boot!
Also,
Ken. Really need to watch Buffy sometime.
Edited by MasterN on Feb 28th 2020 at 5:46:26 AM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
to Ken
Definitely cut Cy, Preston, Allen and the Replicator. They may be horrible bastards, but the heinous standard for Criminal Minds is so high, that they don't really stand out anymore.
I also think that Jackson Cally should be cut. I mean Jackson Cally is a cult leader, but he only had 12 people killed by proxy (2 attempted). Meanwhile, we also had a cult leader from “The Messiah” who murder 299 people. Perhaps Cally's plans on trying to start a race war might be unique enough, but I still have my doubts on Cally (that's just my opinion)
As for Ramos I'd say keep Ramos as having his victims drink gallons of bleach does make him stand out just enough to still qualify not to mention the high body count of 50+ people with that MO.
Edited by G-Editor on Feb 28th 2020 at 3:49:16 AM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffI'm saying keep Cally. The twisted form of starting a race war is to get Native Americans exterminated as much as possible. That's uniquely fucked.
I'll also say, as the one who proposed him? I'm open to relitigating Flloyd Ferrell Fellini...limited in body count, even if he forced some of them to eat pieces of themselves and had a search party unknowingly eat the remains of his victim he made into chili
I got a question about Carnage from the 90s Spidey cartoon, should we count what Spider Carnage did in the series finale against him? In the finale, in an alternate reality, the cartoon did its own version of the clone saga, where a Spider-Man clone who thought was the original finds out his life was a fraud and wants to kill the real Spidey for '' ruining'' his life, but the clone Spidey gets possessed by the original Carnage symbiote, who warps his mind and convinces him to blow up reality. Cletus is nowhere around in those episodes, but that is a huge crime to add to the Carnage symbiote.
Edited by Overlord on Feb 28th 2020 at 6:10:28 AM
- Beethoven's Last Night: Mephistopheles, master of the Deal with the Devil and wicked Lord of the Fallen, attempts to lay claim to Beethoven's soul as he has so many others before him. Mephistopheles promises to relinquish Beethoven's soul if only he obliterates all his music and hands over his Tenth Symphony. Failing that, Mephistopheles gleefully pledges to torture and damn random orphan child should Beethoven not break, espousing in "Misery" through all the horrible ways he'll torment the child before dragging her off to Hell.
- The Legend of William Tell: Governor Gessler is the cold, iron-handed Austrian bailiff in charge of annexing the Swiss lands from their people, making slaves of the Swiss to abuse them in every way possible. Under Gessler's reign, women are raped, houses are burned, and a man hiding his rebel son has his eyes put out, all under Gessler's oversight. At one point, overseeing the construction of a gigantic tower through the slavery of hundreds, Gessler decides to order both the tower and the dungeons to be built bigger than they already are, simply to spite the Swiss rebellion. When Gessler's attempt to make a local village to pay tribute to his helmet is stopped by the brave William Tell, Gessler forces ell to precariously shoot an apple off his own son's head, before ordering him arrested and executed after he pulls it off anyway for concealing a second arrow meant for Gessler's heart.
- The Man from UNCLE: Rudolph von Trüsch, known almost entirely as Uncle Rudi, is the uncle of Gaby and secretly an unrepentant Nazi in league with the Vinciguerra crime family. Once a bullied little boy who concluded from his torment that the masters of life were pain and fear, Uncle Rudi put his skills to use in the second World War, using the carnage to torture as many people to death as he could in as many possible ways to document them in his scrapbook. So prolific his name has been mistaken for three different artists, Trudi has no care as to what his employers want, torturing Napoleon Solo purely for the fun of it when he has him in his clutches and cowardly selling off everyone tangentially connected to him when he's captured.
- Flash Gordon Zeitgeist: The Zeitgeist incarnation of Ming the Merciless may be one of the most vile iterations of the character yet. Ming the Merciless begins as the Prince of Mongo, and a ruthless schemer from the start to climbs his way to power by cutting off the wings of a rival and driving her to suicide while mercilessly murdering everyone else in his way, culminating when Ming uses a portable black hole to kill his own father. Ming comes into his own as a violent tyrant, once using his new siege projectors to suck an entire race out into vacuum to freeze to death. When Ming's lover is found to be cheating on him, Ming sets up her adulterous lover to be vaporized—along with three other planets with him. Ming continues slaughtering planets as a matter of course, while personally murdering minions and councilors alike for any reason he can think of and destroying the minds of women so they may be his concubines and attempting to force this process on Flash Gordon's beloved Dana. Ming masterminds World War II and Hitler's rise to power, using the Nazis to annihilate major cities while simultaneously pelting Germany with disasters so as not to let them get complacent. When Flash Gordon stands in his way for the final time, Ming merely opts to destroy Earth for the sole purpose of hurting him.
- Batman Beyond: Derek Powers is the corrupt CEO of Powers Technology, who eventually devolves into the psychotic supervillain Blight after a radioactive accident. Before his accident, Powers cheerfully attempts to sell a bioweapon that horrifically melts away its victims to terrorists who would use it on wider scales, unnerving even the Kaznian diplomat after he exposes an employee to it purely to demonstrate its effects. Powers becomes the archnemesis of the second Batman, Terry McGinnis, after Powers has Terry's father murdered and the Jokerz framed for it. Powers' deteriorating sanity from the accident only accentuates the monster he is inside, as experiments on and then kills Mr. Freeze; disinherits and then flat-out attempts to murder his own son Paxton; and, upon his vengeful return in the comics, attempts to initiate a nuclear meltdown, heedless of all the downtrodden lives this would consume. Powers has ruined so many lives in the name of self-interest his only reply to Terry's accusation that You Killed My Father is to snarl "do you have the slightest idea how little that narrows it down?!"
@ DemonDuckofDoom, it seems like the same symbiote though. Ultimately an alternate version of Uncle Ben convinces the Spidey clone not to blow up the universe, but since he can't get rid of the Carnage symbiote, the Spidey clone just commits suicide. The Spidey clone would not be doing this if not for the Carnage symbiote.
Edited by Overlord on Feb 28th 2020 at 6:35:48 AM
Has Simon Skinner ever been discussed on this thread? I'm not asking because I think he counts, I'm just curious to know.
Edited by TiMBer1566 on Feb 28th 2020 at 10:44:13 AM
That reminds me, I never got an answer when I asked the same thing about the Rat King
@ Imperial Majesty XO, I am pretty sure its the same symbiote as before, in the alternate universe, the original Spidey and the clone were fighting in Kingpin's lab where he was experimenting with dimensional portals, a machine opens a portal during the fight and the Carnage symbiote comes out and bonds with the clone. The last time we saw regular Carnage, Spidey forced him into Dormammu's Dark Dimension, so the symbiote was in a different dimension. It fits that the same symbiote that bonded with Cletus, bonded with the Spidey clone.
Edited by Overlord on Feb 28th 2020 at 6:46:03 AM
I think at a certain point, you should trust that a writer would not set up things like that and build on previous stories just have everything be a coincidence. They could have just had Spidey clone meet this universe's version of Carnage any other way (just landing on Earth or something), the fact that it came from another dimension after the original was banished to a different dimension, points to them being the same guy, IMO.
@Draxterrus: There's been a couple cannibals here and there, but Floyd is the main one who stood out. I'm fine with him staying. Same with Jackson Cally too.
I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.I'm pretty sure the Carnage symbiote Spider-Carnage bonded with is not supposed to be the same one that bonded with Cletus. The writers admitted they planned to do an episode where Carnage became Jack the Ripper before they decided to end the show. Plus, the show makes a point that Cletus has dominated the symbiote's personality, as opposed to Venom who exist in a symbiotic relationship with his symbiote. That version of Peter and the Carnage symbiote share culpability in their crimes, and the symbiote doesn't really have much of a personality separate from him.
Regardless of whether it's the same symbiote or not, it's not the same entity as Cletus and would need its own entry. And I don't think it has enough personality to count on its own.

Yeah I'm going to abstain from the whole Criminal Minds discussion as well.
Edited by MGD107 on Feb 28th 2020 at 5:38:35 AM