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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#203276: Feb 27th 2020 at 7:13:27 PM

  • Birds Of Prey: Victor Zsasz is the right-hand man of Roman Sionis. A vicious killer who enjoys 'releasing' others from existence. Years ago, Zsasz gleefully participated in the Bertinelli family massacre and as Roman's enforcer, Zsasz does most of the killing for him, including peeling the faces off the victims while they are still alive. Zsasz carves a tally into himself for each victims, boasting of having many, many such marks over his body, and when he finds that young Cassandra Cain has swallowed the Bertinelli diamond, his recourse is to force Dinah Lance to slit her open before trying to kill all the other heroines.
  • Waxworks: Ivan the Terrible in the second segment is a cruel tyrant who is described as turning entire cities into cemeteries. A sadist who poisons his victims, Ivan visits them nightly to enjoy their agony and torment them with an hourglass to represent the slow passing of their lives. Ivan turns on his poison-maker when he suspects the man of disloyalty before attending a wedding where he sacrifices the bride's father against an assassination attempt, kidnaps the bride for himself and attempts to send the groom to his torture room.
  • Flahs Gordon 1988: Ming the Merciless is the depraved ruler of the planet Mongo who enacts the right of first night to rape any woman he desires. If the husbands resist, Ming is only too happy to murder them and wed the woman to their corpse before taking her. Ming attempts to break Dale Arden's mind to become his submissive woman, leaving Flash to melt in a death trap. Growing furious with Flash's resistance, Ming orders another ally to murder his own son and murders the boy to prove no wish of Ming's goes unfulfilled. Ming obliterates the entire city as a message, regularly starving, torturing and murdering his people and being willing to allow the destruction of another city and killing millions to preserve his rule. Fully willing to kill his own daughter if it benefits him, Ming is a sadistic tyrant who cares for nothing but his own power and pleasure.
  • Hellboy:
    • Azzael is the father of Hellboy, Anung un Rama at birth. A powerful figure in hell, Azzael corrupted many mortals, being known as a lord of local witches in England. Marrying the witch Sarah Hughes, Azzael later returned for her, murdering her human children and took her to hell where he burnt her away to retrieve his true son. Cutting off his hand to fit it with the right Hand of Doom, intending on causing the apocalypse to control the Oghru Jahad himself. Azzael is the progenitor of all troubles in the series, driven his own monstrous nature.
    • The Vampire Lord of The Sleeping and the Dead is a powerful vampire who helped to concoct the scheme to set most European vampires to secrecy, plotting to build their numbers and raise them centuries hence when mankind has forgotten them, allowing them to slaughter millions and take over the planet. The Vampire Lord corrupts a woman named Katherine into his vampire slave, taking her younger sister Mary as a plaything before turning her into a horrific monster imprisoned in her old house. The Vampire Lord and Katherine then prey on dozens of innocents, slowly murdering them before he attempts to raise his victims in a fury to slaughter Hellboy and the other BPRD agents.
    • Jeremiah "Miser" Witkins was a war profiteer who helped to cause conflict between Natives and the colonists to line his own pockets. After being caught playing the British and Colonists against one another, he was hanged and returned worse. A soul collector who makes dark bargains to obtain the souls of his victims, Witkins as the Crooked Man haunts the Appalachian Mountains, bargaining with Tom Ferrell to do evil as so many others have with his power. When Tom refuses to use his power for wickedness, Witkins has Tom's father turned into a horse and ridden to death, murdering the kind girl Cora Fisher who became a witch by sheer misfortune and lays siege to the local church with his slaves. Killing and corrupting countless innocents in the backwoods, Witkins stops at nothing to claim the souls he feels he has been owed, keeping them as hellbound slaves or gold coins he refuses to ever part with.

Edited by Lightysnake on Feb 27th 2020 at 7:47:45 AM

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Ansongc2000 Pensive Wright from Serenity Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: Hit me with your best shot
Pensive Wright
#203278: Feb 27th 2020 at 7:51:07 PM

I watched the Chinese animation Bruce Lee and the Chinese Gods, and the king seems to love his wife, the nine-tailed fox. He plays sex games with her, uses every resource in his kingdom to cater to her sadistic whims, and during the climax, he angrily accuses the heroes of having killed his wife. Is this insufficient evidence? Has anybody else seen the film and can offer a second opinion? He's still horrible, so I don't really care what the verdict is, but I feel obligated to bring it up.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#203279: Feb 27th 2020 at 7:57:46 PM

[tup]shadowbeast

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#203280: Feb 27th 2020 at 8:01:39 PM

They have a mutual love of torture and slaughter but nothing too genuine I can recall from it.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#203281: Feb 27th 2020 at 8:01:39 PM

Worst case, we just cut the king and keep his wife. They're both listed, IIRC.

[up] If the king is actually outright calling out the heroes for killing his wife in genuine anger, I'm not sure we can play that card.

Edited by Scraggle on Feb 27th 2020 at 9:02:07 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#203282: Feb 27th 2020 at 8:02:44 PM

I really don't remember the line or context there.

Albeit most of the movie is admittedly incoherent.

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#203283: Feb 27th 2020 at 8:03:55 PM

I'm gonna say "cut" the king then, keep his wife if she never shows any onscreen love.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#203284: Feb 27th 2020 at 8:05:53 PM

I'll check the scene again later, since from what I recall, his monologue after is done while just laughing hysterically, so that may be how I missed it.

Though eh, no big deal. Cut and keep Da Ji

Edited by Lightysnake on Feb 27th 2020 at 8:14:31 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Bootlebat Since: Dec, 2012
#203287: Feb 27th 2020 at 8:54:17 PM

Probably a lost cause but since Joe didn't show up until Fury Road, if we take the first Mad Max on it's own would Toecutter count? Also, I think maybe the original version of James Bond - Blofeld should be cut as he definitely loves his Right-Hand Cat and isn't the rule no loved ones?

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#203288: Feb 27th 2020 at 8:56:19 PM

Toecutter's redeeming qualities aren't undone by being heinous enough even in a film far from before Joe's came out. Blofeld's cat has been discussed before and deemed an accessory that isn't developed enough to be called redeeming.

Bootle have you been... asked to use the search function before? I'm having deja vu here.

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#203289: Feb 27th 2020 at 8:57:03 PM

[up] IIRC, Toecutter was cut for genuinely caring about one of his minions, and there's no indication that Blofeld really loves his cat.

Bootlebat Since: Dec, 2012
#203290: Feb 27th 2020 at 8:59:58 PM

[up] Why does he pet it constantly then? If he didn't love he'd probably neglect or abuse it?

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#203291: Feb 27th 2020 at 9:00:06 PM

Disproportionate Retribution, Hypocrite, Yandere, It's All About Me and Freudian Excuse Is No Excuse. All coming up now:

What is the work?

Fantasy Island is the 2020 film adaptation of the classic 1977 TV series produced by Blumhouse (because yeah, those go together) about guests on a mystical island run by the very friendly Mr. Roarke who through the magic of the island are each granted their most desired fantasy, only for it to usually turn to Be Careful What You Wish For and Reality Ensues induced scenarios that make the person more content with their life when they've gotten through it and things go back to normal. Being as Blumhouse apparently didn't learn their lesson with Jem and the Holograms or Truth or Dare (have not seen either of those movies at this time), the Horror approach to this film has a surprise villain pulling strings and thus, takes the Rose Armitage approach.

Who is she and what has she done?

Melanie Cole is a young woman who apparently stalked popular mean girl Sloane Maddison in high school and Sloane reacted by dumping toilet water on her. When Melanie's therapist had her write notes to class members that were never actually to be shared, Sloane got a hold of them and posted them all around the school. Later on, Melanie meets and right away falls in love with a guy named Nick Taylor who was the first person she met that actually treated her well. They were supposed to have a second date, but when she got stood up, thought she was being rejected again only for her to find out Nick was killed in a fire accidentally caused by his downstairs neighbor Gwen Olsen. Melanie also figures out that stepbrothers J.D. and Brax Weaver (the latter of which becomes Tattoo by the end of the movie) lived nearby and Patrick Sullivan (a cop who stood by and didn't do anything out of fear) were indirectly involved too in some vague way and vows revenge on all of them.

Learning of Fantasy Island and the power it has, she contacts Roarke and has him kidnap Sloane and lure the others to the island to make them all pay. The goal is to have their own supposed fantasies lure them into a false sense of security and then turn on and kill them all. Melanie herself pretends to be fulfilling her fantasy of revenge on Sloane by pretending to think that Sloane tied to a chair behind a two way mirror is a hologram. She electrocutes Sloane, douses her with toilet water and then brings up a video of Sloane cheating on her husband which is then put on Sloane's Facebook and exposed to her actual husband. Then a twisted recreation of Melanie's therapist with staples on his mouth comes out to torture Sloane to death, but Melanie fakes saving Sloane to gain her trust and they escape. Melanie and Sloane meet a former soldier turned investigator named Damon (who Melanie may have also had brought to the island to test things out and/or sell the story) who is there to expose the evil that he has encountered. When the therapist comes after them again, Damon is forced to fight him off and then sacrifice himself to save them.

Meanwhile, Gwen is almost killed by smoke immolation or the apartment fire when she changes fantasies to try to save Nick, Patrick is captured and accused of being an enemy by soldiers lead by his father (who later dies saving them from the zombified recreations that emerge when a person created by the island is killed) and J.D. and Brax are captured and threatened by a drug dealer who plans to kill them and J.D. ends up shot dead later on too (Disney Death as he's revived at the very end of the movie though when Brax stays on the island in order for his fantasy of J.D. getting to live again to come true). Melanie and Sloane return to the dungeon where Sloane over the phone gives both her husband and Melanie a very heartfelt apology and they give him Damon's contacts info so they can get pulled from the island.

They unite with Patrick and Brax and then head for the dock as the plane arrives only for the plane to be blown up in the air by the zombified drug dealer. They then unite with Gwen and head into the caves to the fountain (the source of the island's power) to blow it up with one of the grenades. Melanie, after wounding Patrick, comes forth though and reveals that it was her plan to get them all there to "avenge" Nick's death and the twisted fantasies arrive to try to kill them all again (thus, she is the "Psycho Stalker Chick" Sloane said she was all along). Roarke goes along with Melanie at first while throwing the non live grenade into the fountain, but then comes to his senses and points out something they already knew: the fantasies come from drinking the fountain's water. Sloane drinks the water from Damon's canteen and as a result, the charred version of Nick emerges from the fountain and pulls Melanie in. Melanie reemerges though and throws the now live grenade at them. Right before Patrick throws himself on the grenade and is sacrificed, Nick drags Melanie down in the fountain once again.

Heinous standard?

Creations on the island involve armed drug cartel members and a warped version of the therapist Melanie saw who resort to torture and/or threats (it's also implied Gwen's own fantasy five year old daughter would have eventually turned on and killed her too). Melanie clearly researched and formed them all in her mind with what she learned and definitely knew that when she brought them all there that they would each be viciously targeted by these creations and destroyed by them in one way or another. The outcome was going to be the same in her mind no matter what. She herself because of this is responsible for the deaths of three people on the island itself as a result (one of which does admittedly get revived) and whoever was flying the plane too.

Roarke is involved in all this, but is mostly just indulging Melanie for the sake of keeping his wife Julia (while his wife is a simplified version at his own behest, he acknowledges the unethical nature of this and lets her go to do a Heel–Face Turn). The island doesn't really seem to have a mind of its own either. Melanie also personally handles the initial torture she puts Sloane through and only pretends to be horrified the whole time and only pretends to be ignorant that what she's doing is actually what she's doing. Plenty of people from the fantasies are also killed, but they're bi-products of the recreations for the most part. Also, yeah Horror villain, but she still has a utterly unmistakable personal cruelty to her in spite of that.

Redeeming qualities? Mitigating factors?

I don't buy her being tormented by Sloane in high school to be good enough. For starters, we only hear about this and it was years ago and yes, Melanie saw a therapist, but then much like that therapist, she wields the torture she went through as a weapon against those shocked by the fact that she subjected them to emotional and life-threatening torture on the island. Feigning a deeply moved reaction to Sloane's emotional apology is also rather petty too and invalidates it even more. I also call bull on her wanting revenge for Nick's death. She barely knew him and believed after only just meeting him that their connection was the best she'd ever had. Her paranoia at the idea that Nick stood her up and possible Sanity Slippage don't play a part in this as her reaction is completely uncalled for.

While Sloane's behavior toward Melanie was abhorrent, Melanie was also said to be a creepy stalker back then too, so it likely predates the mistreatment leading to a psychological break because it was probably already there to begin with. Melanie possibly blew it out of proportion to make herself look more like the victim too. Melanie being a stalker is also validated by her learning all she could about Sloane over the years since school and she incorporated that onto the others too. Melanie idealizes and acts like her and Nick's connection was way more personal than what it was and comes off way more as a crazy zealot than a genuinely mourning girlfriend who actually had deep personal care for this guy. Trying to kill them all with a grenade also has her going out on a particularly spiteful note too. I don't see it as a case of Unintentionally Unsympathetic because it seems clear as to how much of a maniac she is, but it might come off that way though.

Verdict?

I will give her a [tup]. Unlike Jurgen, Melanie herself is very real and very aware of what she's doing by her own volition even if the things around her and the guests are not.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Feb 27th 2020 at 9:04:20 AM

Bootlebat Since: Dec, 2012
#203292: Feb 27th 2020 at 9:00:36 PM

Also how do you search within a thread rather than searching the whole forum?

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#203293: Feb 27th 2020 at 9:09:01 PM

@Bootlebat Blofeld Prime and Blofeld/Oberhauser are only ever seen petting their cats (one of them also kissed it at a point), but nothing more. The cats are accessories, not beings they have actual affection for.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Feb 27th 2020 at 9:18:25 AM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#203294: Feb 27th 2020 at 9:09:13 PM

[up][up]On Google, put in the character's name + Subpages Monster.

Edited by AustinDR on Feb 27th 2020 at 9:12:23 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#203295: Feb 27th 2020 at 9:11:56 PM

Leaning towards yes on Melanie. If she goes up Lucy Hale would be the fourth Disney Channel star to have played a CM.

Edited by Bullman on Feb 27th 2020 at 11:16:51 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
WaryHoglet Since: Feb, 2016
#203296: Feb 27th 2020 at 9:27:16 PM

[tup] on Shadowbeast but a [tdown] on Melanie. Sorry but that EP was very unconvincing to me. You wrote an entire paragraph on three Freudian Excuses the movie offers for her and then basically write "in my personal opinion all this sad backstory is invalid because she possibly did X and hypothetically thought Y." The fact that you think her sad backstory doesn't "count" doesn't mean its not in the movie and isnt a redeeming factor, that's just your Alternate Character Interpretation. I'd be open to changing my vote if you can provide evidence from the movie itself that proves they "don't count', but as of right now you're using a bunch of Alternate Character Interpretation which doesn't fly for this trope.

Edited by WaryHoglet on Feb 27th 2020 at 9:37:39 AM

Bootlebat Since: Dec, 2012
#203297: Feb 27th 2020 at 9:37:57 PM

@Future Movie Writer Wouldn't petting count as affection? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#203298: Feb 27th 2020 at 9:46:14 PM

@Bootlebat He's not shown to think of the cat being around as anything but that: the cat being around.

@Wary She takes things way too far based on what she claims traumatized her. Her reasons mean crap. The movie makes it abundantly clear that aside from whatever treatment she underwent not being anywhere near as terrible, she clearly goes way too far for any of it to be justified. There are others like Lotso (who 100% counts as a CM) who seem to have good reason, but destroy any dignity toward those reasons with how petty and cruel they can be.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Feb 27th 2020 at 9:49:24 AM

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#203299: Feb 27th 2020 at 9:47:31 PM

No. Showing actual concern or care over the cat is "redeeming." It's a background prop.

We shot down this quality years ago, Bootlebat. Literally nothing can be gained fighting for it. Drop it, please.

I'm leaning no to Melanie. Being bullied is not a valid justification for sadistic serial murder, but at the same time I have a hard time glossing over that her entire plan is meant to avenge one person, however nutty and fanatical said vengeance may be. I think that implies a level of care from Melanie, psychotic as it may be, and assuming that is the only way I can see for her motivation to even make sense.

Edited by Scraggle on Feb 27th 2020 at 10:50:03 AM

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#203300: Feb 27th 2020 at 9:49:19 PM

[up]She believes she's in love with a man she went out with once and is willing to stake multiple murders on it. It's absurd.


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