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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

AgeOfTropeEmpire Handsome Head of Hyperion Since: Nov, 2018
Handsome Head of Hyperion
#203251: Feb 27th 2020 at 1:01:55 PM

In Betrayal, Uprising, and Evolution, Flynn repeatedly tries to correct Clu on his growing megalomaniacal tendencies, though. Yes, Clu's first order was "make the perfect system," but he received many, many more orders and advice from Flynn in their time together about how ISOs should be appreciated and cared for, and how the world isn't perfect. Flynn outright says to Clu that the "real world isn't perfect" in Betrayal and he should stop trying to make it that way, and Clu just smugly replies that the Grid isn't the "real world," and proclaims that Flynn has deviated from what they're mission was. When he confronts Flynn and stages his coup, Clu smugly asks "Am I still to make the perfect system?", and when Flynn replies "Uh...yeah?", Clu just smirks and orders Flynn and Tron killed.

In Evolution, Flynn tries to convince Clu, when they are still friends, that ISOs are beautiful entities not deserving of hate. When Clu—who is working to frame ISOs as viruses at this point—rejects Flynn's notion, Flynn says that Clu likely doesn't know any better just because Flynn didn't when he made Clu, to which Clu just smirks and carries on his plans.

I understand and can appreciate the feeling that Clu's last moments disqualify him, but I do not personally believe that he is disqualified at all because of the terms of his creation or moral compass. Clu outright admits that he wants to be a god and make the Grid a new "Olympus", and for all his talk about protecting Programs and making their lives better, Clu butchers them and arranges for the mass murder of them just to frame it on ISOs. Clu is not a Well-Intentioned Extremist, and even if he thinks he's doing what's right, he's nothing but a Knight Templar.

I will say to cut Xerosic, as well.

Edited by AgeOfTropeEmpire on Feb 27th 2020 at 1:05:59 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#203252: Feb 27th 2020 at 1:03:22 PM

I get that, but CLU not seeing reason doesn't erase that stuff. to me, it compounds it because as Flynn said: CLU can't know he's wrong because Flynn didn't when he made him. CLU's skewed mind is the result of this

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#203253: Feb 27th 2020 at 1:40:34 PM

That's a perfectly fair way of looking at it

But "didn't know any better" Doesn't mean he wasn't capable of learning.

In Legacy it seamt the issue was Flynn not guiding him properly, or as said earlier "That he didn't get reason to doubt his programming til the end" hence why he didn't(Which is what would separate himself from all the other programs who go against there initial purpose no problem)

but its been shown sense that Flynn did try to guide and teach him, and told him about how perfection didn't exist. And Clu just refused to listen.

Edited by Kylotrope on Feb 26th 2020 at 11:45:14 PM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
AgeOfTropeEmpire Handsome Head of Hyperion Since: Nov, 2018
Handsome Head of Hyperion
#203254: Feb 27th 2020 at 1:44:19 PM

Clu does say in Betrayal that he's able to be "flexible" in regards to imperfections in the Grid and how to deal with them, and actually reneges on his brutal tactics of the Games when Tron expresses horror at it, stating that he's willing to go other avenues. It isn't until he makes the leap into his coup that he chooses his own route towards "perfection," and brings back the Games. I feel like this shows that Clu is expliclty capable of not going the route of "perfection" that he does, he chooses to make it about mass murder and genocide. Couldn't that be solid evidence that Clu is willingly choosing to go the most dictatorial, power hungry route to perfection, since he outright admits he's capable of flexibility and changing his mind?

SumDumNerd LOCKDOWN PROCEDURES ENGAGED from [REDACTED] Since: May, 2017 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
LOCKDOWN PROCEDURES ENGAGED
#203255: Feb 27th 2020 at 2:22:50 PM

[tup] Ragyo

Abstain on CLU, but honestly leaning towards [tup] based on points made.

Read Slender Man vs Siren Head 2: The Foundation here
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#203256: Feb 27th 2020 at 2:40:23 PM

Kylo, that logic isn't convincing. There is an entire bit on the end of CLU's life where he is given an unambiguous Alas, Poor Villain, justifying that he tried to make things perfect the only way he knew how, with Flynn stating the same, and that CLU can't know better because Flynn didn't.

Yes, CLU went very evil route with it, but we shouldn't just invalidate a pretty blatant Alas, Poor Villain here. Flynn trying to teach him doesn't change that CLU's mindset is set by how and when he was created

Edited by Lightysnake on Feb 27th 2020 at 2:40:59 AM

Bootlebat Since: Dec, 2012
#203257: Feb 27th 2020 at 3:10:03 PM

Has anyone suggested Toecutter? I'm surprised he's not already considered one.

xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#203258: Feb 27th 2020 at 3:22:10 PM

[tdown] Clu. He’s more like Sargeras or antispiral than Zamasu, has a degree of Blue-and-Orange Morality, and it’s easy to pity him in his final moments. And him unwilling to change, when considering that he’s based on Flynn’s bad qualities as well as his good ones such as egoism.....it provides a sort of case for impaired moral agency.

[tup] Palps and Ragyo

Edited by xie323 on Feb 27th 2020 at 3:28:09 AM

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#203259: Feb 27th 2020 at 3:27:54 PM

Clu dosent have an Alas, Poor Villain, that trope is for when a villains death is played tragically, that moment where he has that talk with Flynn was before the part where he died after a Redemption Rejection.(The latter of wich is viewable here https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtNhdBsdPnY&t=63s)

I know that seems like nitpicking, but APV is typically considered unambiguously mitigating, so I felt it was worth clarifying.

It isn't said that Clu is incapable of going against his initial purpose, Flynn just says that he "wouldn't know" it because Flynn didn't at The time. Not that he was incapable of learning or growing from his original purpose. I would agree that wasn't enough for it to not be mitigating in the film itself(One could potentially refute the fact programs are capable of doing against there programming or initial purpose with zero issue with something like "well they aren't copies of people" or something like that) The EU has revealed a number of things to indicate that Clu had control over himself. Such as Clu himself explicitly saying so as Age said above.

Edited by Kylotrope on Feb 27th 2020 at 1:28:56 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#203260: Feb 27th 2020 at 3:31:17 PM

You're not stating my argument correctly. CLU has no idea he's wrong. He doesn't understand what he's doing is wrong. He thinks he's fulfilling their purpose, doing the best thing, and Flynn is the one betraying him. And this is mitigating because it's based upon the way Flynn created him. He rejects Flynn because he can't conceive of a way he's wrong...because he was made to see perfection, and believes he's fully correct in it.

Toecutter I think has heinousness issues and ambiguous care for one of his men

Edited by Lightysnake on Feb 27th 2020 at 3:36:46 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#203261: Feb 27th 2020 at 3:32:18 PM

Okay I will make my vote after hearing both sides of this CLU debate. I'm going to vote no for the reasons Lighty brought up. But I will say this. Rather he goes up or not, CLU is my favorite part of that otherwise boring movie.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#203262: Feb 27th 2020 at 3:34:00 PM

[up]I’m still gonna stick with abstain for now since there’s enough ambiguity to a certain degree to go either way (from what I can tell). May lean no, but I’d rather not decide now.

username brought up Truth or Dare? a long time ago, but it was never discussed (I searched left and right). Anyone seen it?

Can’t take credit for the new edits since the second version I put up last night, but it’s looking real good right now (this'll probably be the final version):

  • "What If Qui Gon Jinn Trained Anakin Skywalker?" (covers The Phantom Menace & Attack of the Clones) & "What If Qui-Gon Jinn Was In 'Revenge of the Sith'?" (covers Revenge of the Sith): Sheev Palpatine is the Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Rebublic and is also Darth Sidious, the Dark Lord of the Sith. He incites the Clone Wars, betrays his apprentices and allies left in right and instigates the destruction of the Jedi all as he did before, but in addition to all that, Palpatine emotionally manipulates Anakin Skywalker into fighting and helping him kill Mace Windu and helping orchestrate the death of Anakin's pregnant wife Padme, tricks Anakin into thinking he's revived her to convince him to become Darth Vader. Palpatine's actions further result in Anakin receiving life-threatening injuries and killing Qui-Gon Jinn. Palpatine then continues to keep Anakin in line with the incredibly cruel false promise of Padme being alive and staying alive.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Feb 27th 2020 at 3:45:21 AM

SkyCat32 (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#203264: Feb 27th 2020 at 3:38:35 PM

Toecutter was put off for a redeeming quality, yes. And "no" to CLU. I think it's pretty definitively shown at the end that his agency and morality is way too fucked up.

Bootlebat Since: Dec, 2012
#203265: Feb 27th 2020 at 3:44:23 PM

What is the good thing about Toecutter?

xie323 Since: Jul, 2009
#203266: Feb 27th 2020 at 3:44:47 PM

Maintaining my downvote for CLU, I don’t think the EU adds any new information or fully refuted his potentially impaired moral agency of being impaired by Flynn’s negative traits. Simply displaying instances of doing something else dosent really mean too much if they don’t really refute our main objection, meaning that Flynn’s negative traits such as egoism and self righteousness affected how Clu came out and impaired his agency.

Somewhat unrelated but there are tons of villains with impaired moral agency that can act like they’re fully sapient like Aku and the Old Gods. Simply or behaving once or twice like if one has agency does not fully provide a case for qualifying unless there is a very clear refutation(ie: another member of the same species displaying the potential to do good, the villain clearly is displayed to be able to choose to be good and rejects it)

Edited by xie323 on Feb 27th 2020 at 3:49:42 AM

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#203267: Feb 27th 2020 at 3:49:16 PM

Erm, did...anyone bring up the fact Clu was sapient as evidence?EDIT:NVM

But anyway, eh, I highly disagree with the agency thing, but agree to disagree on it.

Edited by Kylotrope on Feb 27th 2020 at 1:52:24 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#203268: Feb 27th 2020 at 4:22:40 PM

He seems to care for one of his men, as Lighty stated.

Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#203269: Feb 27th 2020 at 4:52:29 PM

[up] I always thought it was because of Joe outheinousing Toecutter, guess I was wrong. (Also, I think both Toecutter and Joe are portrayed by the same actor.)

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#203270: Feb 27th 2020 at 4:57:26 PM

Alright I just did a tally on Xerosic here is the general consensus (correct me if I missed anyone):

The number of votes to cut him are 13: Lightysnake, King of nightmares, miraculous, Scraggle, Demon Duck of Doom, G-Editor (me), 43110, Age of Trope Empire, Pure Grain Alka Seltzer, and A New Man, Bullman, Xie 323, nrjxll

The number of votes to keep him are 4: Satoshi Bakura, Imperial Majesty XO, kyleotrope, and Master Joseph.

So currently the number to cut Xerosic far outweighs the number to keep him so the general consensus is the Xerosic should be cut.

Edited by G-Editor on Feb 27th 2020 at 4:14:35 AM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#203271: Feb 27th 2020 at 5:01:27 PM

[up]I think I switched to cut to. If I didn't, I am now.

Edited by Bullman on Feb 27th 2020 at 7:06:30 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
#203272: Feb 27th 2020 at 5:05:38 PM

Catching up: Yes to the Ripple Man, Haruka, Ibbe, Gessler, Ivan, Uncle Rudi, the Crooked Man, Palpatine, and Ragyo.

Abstaining on Xerosic and CLU.

No to Icthultu.

nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#203274: Feb 27th 2020 at 6:00:42 PM

I'm not entirely sure, but IIRC, I was inclined to cut Xerosic before. Even if that wasn't the case, the new argument definitely points me in that direction, so I'll throw my voice in for a cut.

Edited by nrjxll on Feb 27th 2020 at 8:03:29 AM

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#203275: Feb 27th 2020 at 7:07:57 PM

[tdown] Xerosic and CLU

So a few months ago, I read this Creepypasta because I was bored. Then I realized it might be worth talking about again.

What Is the Work?

The Toadman Saga is a Creepypasta trilogy by Wolfenmaus.

While the series already has a CM, the titular Toadman, Keith Lesler ("It’s Toadman!"), who’s entry has been around since I found out about the Complete Monster trope back in 2015—when I was still in high school (!)—upon further inspection, I would like to propose an overlooked candidate.

Who Is he?

The Shadowbeast is the ultimate villain of the trilogy, and the one behind Toadman’s continuous resurrection and murders.

What has he done?

Thought to be a fictionalized legend, the Shadowbeast was once an alien who arrived on earth and brought havoc and chaos to the land, murdering three children by chopping off their limbs and viewing himself as a godly figure by having people collect magic stones for him. Eventually he was sealed in a mine cavern, never to kill again. Though they apparently forgot that he was an inhuman deity with telepathy, manipulating weak-minded people into servitude.

After Keith Lesler became inspired by the Shadowbeast’s murders and mimicked them for fun, he was later given the death penalty. Promising Keith to revive him every thirty years to continue his bloodlust in return for his services, the Shadowbeast uses Keith as a loyal servant to murder people at his command, primarily out of sadism, even making him lure people to release him from his prison, while also letting him wear the heads of people both Shadowbeast and Keith murdered. In the first story, Shadowbeast assists Keith in the murders of Abram Linfeld’s friends and his possession of them.

The Shadowbeast later manipulates the cop Doyle into betraying Tyler, taking advantage of his deceased father so that he can break him and make him serve as a vessel for Keith’s spirit to inhabit. Ordering Doyle to bring Tyler to the mineshaft where he was banished to, the Shadowbeast orders Doyle to kill Tyler, but once he proves to be a pathetic fighter, Shadowbeast just randomly summons Keith to behead Doyle, threatening Tyler with murder by Keith should he not free him from his prison. Tyler does just so, resulting in the Shadowbeast being free and dooming the world.

Redeeming Qualities?

None.

Heinousness?

An Eldritch Abomination willing to spread evil and chaos around the world and rule over it? Pass. And yes before you ask, he does have a personality. One that’s quite sadistic in fact. There's nothing in the trilogy that says he's Made of Evil.

Also Toadman still keeps, since he’s always been a murderous killer even before he met Shadowbeast. I like to compare this relationship to Mr. Munshun and Charles Burnside.

Conclusion

I think he’s a keep.

Edited by therealjackieboy on Feb 27th 2020 at 7:11:09 AM

It's Spooky Month!

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