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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
UltimateDemonBeast65 Since: Feb, 2018
#203177: Feb 27th 2020 at 4:00:39 AM

[tup] to Clu

If we were just counting TRON: Legacy then it would be too ambiguous. But the other forms of media seem to really nail in that Clu is perfectly capable of defying his programming and evolve from it into something worse than Flynn intended.

CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#203180: Feb 27th 2020 at 5:30:14 AM

Sure to CLU 2 I guess. But only because of the expanded materials.

First for Jeff Bridges if he goes up.

Edited by Bullman on Feb 27th 2020 at 7:38:29 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#203181: Feb 27th 2020 at 6:06:00 AM

For xersoic is what he does really that unique. Aren't their like four other villains who've attempted world ending too. It's not a very unique thing and all the others have of other crimes and stuff added on. Like place him against cyrus for one and he'd fail hard in terms of heinounsess.

The stuff with lysandre is just being a mook let's be honest. Those are more his bosses crimes then his.

Edited by miraculous on Feb 27th 2020 at 6:07:00 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Clown-Face Wild Child from Canada Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: In another castle
Wild Child
#203182: Feb 27th 2020 at 6:10:03 AM

[tup]CLU 2.

Alright, with help from 43, I have a condensed rewrite for a character a wrote up way back in the day, a character that, in hindsight, I probably wouldn't have proposed nowadays, but meh.

  • Inside Out fanfic Kids World: Annis is a power-hungry pre-teen who uses a Depopulation Bomb fatal to people older than twelve to rule over the remaining children. Assuming control, Annis abuses her "best friend" Riley and her foster sister Caroline, forcing the latter to set a building full of kids on fire and beats her for stopping Annis from feeding an infant to a pack of dogs. With Caroline seemingly killed, Annis mocks and brutally beats the heartbroken Riley and later throws her off a bridge for trying to stop her from causing more chaos. Enraged when Caroline and Riley survive, Annis burns multiple buildings to the ground, uncaring if they're populated, ultimately intending a devastating attack on Riley's former home Minnesota to spite her. When her control over her followers is broken, Annis rejects Riley's offer of redemption, vowing to kill her and take back her power.

Why so serious?
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#203183: Feb 27th 2020 at 6:11:18 AM

I have a hard time with CLU...mainly because of his final scene with Kevin Flynn.

He comes off as so genuinely lost and hurt in that bit that it's hard to see him as a genuine CM for that moment. The excuses Kevin makes for CLU hold up for me, because it really does come across that he doesn't know any better. No other ISO is based on Flynn in that sense.

I'm reminded of Sargeras from Warcraft. A cruel, narcissistic, manipulative and sadistic monster but that tiny trace of good intent is never truly snuffed out. I think it's the same for CLU. CLU is a tyrant, he is a monster and he's an ISO Nazi, but he was created to bring the prfect system, based on Flynn's own thoughts...he begins to put this into practice. He never has a reason to break from his programing and the fundamental issue?

He thinks he's right. Because he doesn't understand any better. He's egotistical because Flynn was. He can't see beyond himself because of those reasons, and his point for Flynn at the end is "I was trying to do the right thing and you abandoned me!" And Flynn admits that CLU's flaws are his flaws and partially his fault.

He's horrible, but a CM I cannot see.

Edited by Lightysnake on Feb 27th 2020 at 6:21:18 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#203184: Feb 27th 2020 at 6:16:22 AM

For anyone curious.

CLU: [laughs] The cycles haven't been kind, have they?

Kevin Flynn: [Quips] No, you don't look so bad.

CLU: I did everything . . . Everything you ever asked!

Kevin Flynn: I know you did.

CLU: I executed the plan!

Kevin Flynn: As you saw it.

CLU: You! You promised that we would change the world . . . together. You broke your promise!

Kevin Flynn: I know. I understand that now.

CLU: I took the system to its maximum potential. I created the perfect system!

Kevin Flynn: The thing about perfection is that it's unknowable. It's impossible, but it's also right in front of us, all the time. You wouldn't know that because I didn't, when I created you . . . I'm sorry, CLU . . . I'm sorry.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#203185: Feb 27th 2020 at 6:19:03 AM

[up] You see I was wondering why I was hesitant, but I couldn't remember why. Yeah this is to much to just explain away. I am switching to abstain.

Edited by Bullman on Feb 27th 2020 at 8:22:28 AM

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
AgeOfTropeEmpire Handsome Head of Hyperion Since: Nov, 2018
Handsome Head of Hyperion
#203186: Feb 27th 2020 at 6:21:53 AM

Clu definitely is angry in that scene, but I think his egomania in expanded materials proves that his frustration is not based around care or feelings of hurt towards Flynn, just a feeling of betrayal that his own creator forgot the "mission". Betrayal shows that Clu was frustrated that Flynn repeatedly refused to help him come up with ways to deal with the ISOs, but that frustration ultimately just turns into megalomania, as Clu admits to a confidante that he had come to believe he himself is the Creator of the Grid, and should rule as such.

Clu also notably takes advantage of Flynn's care for him in that scene. When Flynn accepts that Clu is angry with him, and tries to embrace his creation and offer acceptance and love, Clu fakes acceptance of the approach and hug, only to then strike and brutally assault Flynn while smiling

Edited by AgeOfTropeEmpire on Feb 27th 2020 at 6:23:32 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#203187: Feb 27th 2020 at 6:22:23 AM

My issue is extending it to "Flynn is just wrong about everything and CLU is actually pure evil"...I feel that goes a direction the film didn't quite want it to.

[up] I know he turns on Flynn, but that's because he feels he's doing the right thing and Flynn is standing in the way of it. Flynn created CLU to bring perfection, and didn't know it didn't exist. Now CLU is trying to enforce it on the world.

I liken him again to Sargeras: He's a sadist, a tyrant, a manipulative megalomaniac and hypocrite, but that kernel of good intent and mitigating issues still exists. The final scene with Flynn is too much for me to upvote in good conscience.

Edited by Lightysnake on Feb 27th 2020 at 6:25:31 AM

AgeOfTropeEmpire Handsome Head of Hyperion Since: Nov, 2018
Handsome Head of Hyperion
#203188: Feb 27th 2020 at 6:26:37 AM

I understand that point of view, and it's how I felt as well while watching the movie by itself, but the expanded material is what makes me believe Clu is capable of evolving and making decisions beyond Flynn's programming, and said decisions lead to sadism, egomania, and irredeemability, but I knew when proposing him that Legacy would be the main point of contention and I've said my peace with it, so if he is downvoted that is alright

KingofNightmares Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#203190: Feb 27th 2020 at 6:29:19 AM

I just don't really think there's anything that completely erases those mitigating qualities. All his evil springs from a lot of it, but that intent and Flynn's errors are at the core of his character and he's never truly had a reason to doubt himself before the end.

Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#203191: Feb 27th 2020 at 6:38:47 AM

Abstain on CLU

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
SkyCat32 (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#203193: Feb 27th 2020 at 7:10:53 AM

I'm going to side with Lighty here. Now, since I don't have as much time to devote to this thread as I'd like I'm excited to get this one out to accompany the rewrite I provided for Ragyo to clear some things up and fortunately I've seen the work enough times to be able to get this one out pretty easily:

What's the work?

Kill la Kill is the debut work by Studio Trigger and a wonderful anime following the fanservice-laden adventures of Ryuko Matoi as she journeys to Honnouji Academy to find the truth behind her father's murder, her only hint being the one half of the scissor blade that was left stabbed into his body. At the Academy she meets the debonaire Satsuki Kiryuin, leader of the school's Absurdly Powerful Student Council along with her "Elite Four" members. Challenging Satsuki who seems to be holding back information, Ryuko enters into a combination of action-heavy competition and wacky hijinks alongside her sentient sailor uniform (which is given the name "Senketsu") and best friend Mako Mankanshoku.

Becoming more prevalent as the series goes on is the secret behind Honnouji's "Goku uniforms", clothes which when worn give the user enhanced strength and seem to have some kind of relationship with Senketsu. This is later revealed to be due to the powerful Life Fibers woven into them, while Senketsu is actually a "Kamui", clothing made out of 100% Life Fibers and able to embue his wearer with immense strength. To combat her, Satsuki dons her own "Junketsu" to match Ryuko.

Wile Satsuki herself is a ruthless oppressor who executes students for defying her will, her ultimate goal is revealed to be to overthrow her mother and our candidate today: the hedonistic, sadistic and omnicidal Ragyo Kiryuin.

Who is Ragyo? What has she done?

Initially seen as a mere voice on a telephone giving orders to Satsuki, the first bit of joy given to us by Ragyo is the unleashing of the psychotic Nui Harime upon Honnouji, who arrives to stir up chaos and by revealing herself to be the one who killed Ryuko's dad, manages to drive her into a rage in which she becomes a monstrosity unable to recognize friend from foe and putting all around her in danger. Ragyo observes all of this from afar and absentmindedly comments on how she views Nui as an artist she'll happily allow do as she pleases, uncaring for the collateral damage. Further adding to her depravity is her treatment of Satsuki, whom she clearly sexually molests, being seen rubbing her hands down her daughter's body while they're alone naked together and is indicated to have been doing this to her (teenage) daughter regularly.

Taking centre stage two thirds of the way through the show, Ragyo arrives at Honnouji Academy where she is greeted by Satsuki and the Elite Four. Her Satsuki reveals the full scope of Ragyo's plan to feed humanity to the alien Life Fibers (woven into fabrics sold by Ragyo's company REVOCS around the world) and her goal to betray her monstrous mother. Stabbing and decapitating Ragyo, Ragyo reveals to Satsuki she has experimented with and implanted Life Fibers in her own body, reattaching her head before brutally beating down her daughter. When confronted by Ryuko, Ragyo gives the further divulgement that Ryuko is her other daughter. A flashback shows after Ragyo married Ryuko's father and had their two daughters, she put them through horrific experimentation with Life Fibers and when she believed Ryuko—whom she didn't bother naming—died in them, callously threw her down a garbage dump though her husband stowed away with her after the experiments actually turned her into a human-Life Fiber hybrid, creating Nudist Beach as a resistance force against Ragyo's empire until Nui hunted him down and killed in him in front of Ryuko.

After elucidating Ryuko on their relationship Ragyo proceeds to Mind Rape her with Life Fibers into subservience, breaking her into becoming her weapon and capturing Satsuki as the students of Honnouji Academy flee alongside the stationed secret Nudist Beach member and the Elite Four. A flash forward shows the Earth has been devastated under Ragyo's takeover, with the bulk of humanity eaten by their clothing to create the monstrous COVERS for Ragyo's army, which are used to hunt down and snuff out any survivors. Meanwhile Satsuki is kept naked in captivity where a scene with Ragyo reveals her mother is continuing to sexually assault her at her depraved pleasure, until Satsuki uses a blade hidden in her toenail to cut her restraints and run back to Nudist Beach.

Becoming aware of the movement against her, Ragyo sends the brainwashed Ryuko to kill her former comrades after a sickening display in which she and Nui take advantage of Ryuko's mind state to molest her, even mocking her ideals by having Nui ask if she's angry with her for killing her father and the Life Fiber-influence on Ryuko causing her to deeply kiss Nui in response. After coming back to her senses Ryuko rejoins her friends and declares her intent to stop her vile mother.

Activating the Primordial Life Fiber, Ragyo begins the final stages of her plan to feed the Earth to the destructive aliens. Having her servants give their bodies to power it, it begins moving to the grounds of Honnouji where Ragyo and her followers have taken up residence. Facing Ryuko and Satsuki in combat, Ragyo continues to display her lack of concern for her children in the face of her plans and seemingly kills Ryuko by bisection until she reveals she survived thanks to the Life Fiber experiments Ragyo had conducted on her as a child.

Facing her daughters once more in the final episodes, Ragyo gloats about the end of humanity for Life Fibers to reign supreme and when it seems she has been stopped, devours her secretary Rei Hououmaru along with Nui Harime to power her suit "Shinra Koketsu" and takes to outer space to awaken the Life Fibers where the heroes are helpless to stop her. Fortunately Ryuko's Life Fiber qualities and the combined might of all her friends' Goku uniforms given to her give her the power to fly above and face Ragyo along with Senketsu. During a battle in which Ragyo smugly proclaims to have smitten herself of any maternal feelings to hold back against Ryuko, Ryuko manages to defeat her mother, ending her plans.

As one last show of viciousness, when Ryuko offers reconciliation to Ragyo and asks her to return to Earth with her, Ragyo spitefully refuses, tearing out her own heart and crushing it before ominously saying that Ryuko can count on the Life Fibers returning to destroy all that she cares about one day.

Slightly expanded upon in Satsuki's story during in the video game Kill la Kill: IF, in Satsuki's dream world that takes place while she tries on Junketsu. Ragyo here faces Satsuki and Ryuko during her initial meeting at Honnouji, Ragyo attempts to kill them and stores the Primordial Life Fiber beneath the school, eventually being killed and absorbed by it and trying to destroy the Earth in that reality after her body becomes merged with it. I'll add more on this in the mitigating factors below.

Heinousness?

I really don't think it needs to be said but I'm on a roll so here it goes: she fucking obliterates any heinous standard! Big Bad behind everything. Sexual assault of both of her underage daughters. Sadist to the nth degree. Forcing countless humans to be made into monsters party to the hunting down and eliminating of a resistance set up to save their race. The intent to destroy the whole world. Gaudy fashion sense. The works.

Mitigating Factors?

The argument that Life Fibers have mind controlling properties is the big one to address. We see throughout the show that they're capable of influencing people and Ryuko goes from a straight up good guy to all of the sudden being ready to kill her friends for Ragyo thanks to them. The problem here is that every indication is that Ragyo's position as voice of the Life Fibers by all means appears to be a self-appointed one and all of their brainwashing effects are seen when they're used at her behest. Also the idea of her being controlled to act the way she does would be odd, as in addition to her crimes related to helping them destroy Earth, she also enjoys drawing out the suffering of her enemies and the truly horrendous molestation of Satsuki and Ryuko. All in all there's nothing to indicate she's under their influence, they only exert their mind control abilities with her orders and she doesn't act like Ryuko does during her own stint under their sway.

Ragyo's "care" for others is a farce. She recruited Rei Hououmaru as her secretary from a village after reading she as a child had strong Life Fiber readings and Hououmaru goes on to try and avenge her death but on Ragyo's end? Nothing. She trusts Hououmaru with the full details of her plan but doesn't bat an eye when she and Nui let themselves be absorbed by Shinra Koketsu beyond being useful steps in her plan. Likewise Ragyo mentioning holding back in her last fight with Ryuko is a hilarious bullshit only she could believe. At best Ragyo enjoys drawing out suffering and could well just have been a joke she decided to make, as up until that point her relationship with both daughters has consisted of either raping or trying to kill them.

In terms of actual loyalty to the Life Fibers I don't see this as redeeming for a few reasons. Firstly, they get no dialogue whatsoever, so there's no relationship to build on indicating any sort of friendship or anything altruistic. Secondly, Ragyo is a full on Psycho Supporter type follower and despite having a seeming Knight Templar devotion to enforcing their will, again shows nothing that could be construed as genuine care for them beyond being a vehicle for her to get to feel important. That ties in to my last and most important point: Ragyo is a sociopath and a hedonist. She wants to have and control everything as we see in her fine clothes, mansion, massively successful company and need to dominate both her daughters sexually. I think Ragyo's reasoning for following the Life Fibers is getting to be the person who ends the world, feeling so important that all life comes to an end with her plan.

All in all, nothing holds up, sick monster to the very core.

Now about IF? While there's the implication Satsuki's dream takes place in an Alternate Reality, Ragyo's crimes are basically just a condensed version of what she does in the show and those she does commit have already been seen in the anime proper. Honestly, I don't think there's anything to write home about here.

Verdict?

Keep. A thousand times over. I really just wanted to do this after I rewrote her to explain why I'm not including any of her acts from the video game since it was mentioned when the game came out.

Edited by 43110 on Feb 27th 2020 at 11:36:26 AM

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#203194: Feb 27th 2020 at 7:14:46 AM

Abstain on CLU 2.

[up] When I started reading your post, I was thinking "isn't Ragyo already up?" But then I saw why you were EP-ing her. Voting [tup] tentatively.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#203195: Feb 27th 2020 at 7:18:05 AM

...?

[tup] Ragyo but I don't understand why you're EP ing her

Watch me destroying my country
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#203197: Feb 27th 2020 at 7:22:29 AM

As I literally wrote in the post, Kazuya, there was question about her video game incarnation so I decided to do a master post. Not sure why this question's being asked when its answer could be found in the above entry.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#203198: Feb 27th 2020 at 7:38:23 AM

Ah, Ragyo, indeed a yes in most, if not all incarnations

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#203199: Feb 27th 2020 at 7:45:51 AM

Yeah, Ragyo still seems an easy keep. Shame she basically became a Karma Houdini (yeah, she died, but willingly at her own hand).

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#203200: Feb 27th 2020 at 7:49:08 AM

Tbh that doesn't bother me so much, they did a good job building her up as a hedonistic sociopath who can't really feel negative emotions beyond brief annoyance at interruptions to her plans. Not every CM is going to die kicking and screaming and along with the likes of Shinra, the Major and Gauron it's done well. She's supposed to be a pretty straight example of someone with sociopathic characteristics and one of those is a very reduced ability to feel fear.


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