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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

SkyCat32 (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#203127: Feb 26th 2020 at 12:02:22 PM

Now the possibility for redemption being opened up for Xerosic I find a bigger red flag in regards to him qualifying.

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#203128: Feb 26th 2020 at 12:15:47 PM

abstain on xerostick but keep blight

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#203129: Feb 26th 2020 at 12:15:54 PM

Can someone kindly link to that discussion with A New Mans proposal?

He wasn't turned down for being a single issue wonk(unless I'm mistaken) its because we had a long talk about things and after awhile it sort of became SIW. So I kinda wanted to see the discussion on those first.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#203133: Feb 26th 2020 at 1:09:48 PM

Also not feeling it. I don’t like hostage pictures

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#203134: Feb 26th 2020 at 1:11:22 PM

[tup] Rudi the Crooked Man and keep Blight

Also I’m with Scraggle and Lightysnake and others on cutting Xerosic

Edited by G-Editor on Feb 25th 2020 at 11:11:55 PM

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#203136: Feb 26th 2020 at 1:31:19 PM

Before I vote either way on Xerosic, I'd like to hear the user who suggested him defend his inclusion.

FriedWarthog Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#203137: Feb 26th 2020 at 1:48:14 PM

Imperial: Same here. I remember feeling like he was a safe keep thanks to being fully complicit in Lysandre's apocalyptic schemes, his torture of Pokemon, and the fact that he was willing to continue said apocalypse plan himself. Like, that's a respectable rapsheet that I really feel puts him above most of the anime villains already listed, as well as former keepers who got the boot like Vicious and Yung (While I'm at it, why was he taken off? I seem to have missed that discussion).

Plus, a look back at Satoshi Bakura's defense here ( https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=6vic3f9h1cy5qivsenw8llok&page=6970#comment-174250 ) makes me feel more comfortable in keeping him. Him possibly being redeemed after Clemont's comment about The Power of Friendship and all that stuff is just speculation since at most he just seems surprised with nothing indicating genuine remorse on his part. And to me, it doesn't really feel right or fair to cut a guy based on speculation.

And I'll preface this with a disclaimer: I don't really have a personal attachment to Xerosic since he's a mediocre villain from a mediocre anime adapting a mediocre game, and I've been a lot less invested in this thread than I used to be. But I do think that he's a legitimate keeper and as such will defend his inclusion with a formal "Keep". I don't think any new arguments have been made since we've covered the issue of him possibly having redeeming qualities before and as far as heinousness goes I don't feel he's overshadowed by anyone.

Edited by FriedWarthog on Feb 26th 2020 at 1:51:19 AM

chasemaddigan I'm Sad Frogerson. Since: Oct, 2011
I'm Sad Frogerson.
#203138: Feb 26th 2020 at 2:03:51 PM

[up] Here's the discussion for cutting Yung. The argument seemed to be that he wasn't treated as that heinous in-universe, and Faba would do many of the same crimes as him despite not counting.

It's been years since I've last seen the Pokemon anime, so I can't really comment on either.

CJCroen1393 Pokemon Trainer from The Western Interior Seaway (Ancient one) Relationship Status: A gay little love melody
Pokemon Trainer
#203139: Feb 26th 2020 at 4:19:35 PM

Jumping in to add to the Xerosic discussion because I remember lurking in the forums when he was EP'd and I could've sworn he wasn't actually approved. There were people who upvoted but I remember seeing just as many downvotes. I could be remembering wrong, though.

SatoshiBakura (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#203140: Feb 26th 2020 at 4:44:48 PM

I did propose Xerosic, but I’m not strongly inclined on what happens with him. But my argument on him will not change. His realization in my opinion is too ambiguous and never makes it clear whether or not he would turn good. But I understand those who have want to cut for that reasoning.

What annoyed me then, was that it felt like a few people never read the actual effort post when the arguments to cut him were brought up with things that I clearly discussed. I had mentioned the ambiguous ending when I did the EP, but it seemed that most people only took notice when the proposition to cut was first brought forward.

And again, he’s still wants to cause the apocalypse even without Lysandre’s backing.

But I’m not holding any strong opinions on this.

Edited by SatoshiBakura on Feb 26th 2020 at 7:51:11 AM

WaryHoglet Since: Feb, 2016
#203141: Feb 26th 2020 at 5:38:27 PM

To be clear this is Anime! Xerosic only right? Because the one in the game is just a generic Mad Scientist who never does anything especially heinous and doesn't even come close to CM status

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#203142: Feb 26th 2020 at 5:42:11 PM

Yes

Things are really about to get Fun around here
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#203143: Feb 26th 2020 at 6:11:19 PM

I'm gonna say keep Xerosic, unless somebody has incontrovertible evidence or a strong enough argument against him qualifying.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#203144: Feb 26th 2020 at 6:24:25 PM

I'm honestly not seeing any actual arguments here. Still looks too much of a Single-Issue Wonk that lasted pages IIRC.

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#203145: Feb 26th 2020 at 6:35:28 PM

With Frieds word on the heinousness stuff(and the fact we've talked about that mitigating factor Thoroughly) keep him.

Edited by Kylotrope on Feb 26th 2020 at 4:36:15 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#203146: Feb 26th 2020 at 7:03:33 PM

Still leaning cut but I can live with whatever the decision is.

Decided to give a shot at trimming Griffin's entry on The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.

Current:

My proposal:

  • The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen: Hawley Griffin, aka "The Invisible Man", is a selfish and cowardly reimagination of the literary character. Recruited by England from an all-girls boarding school, Griffin has been using his powers to sexually assault the students, having impregnated three and caught in the midst of trying to force himself on a fourth. Joining the team out of a promise for payment and pardon for his crimes, Griffin continues to prove his despicableness by beating an innocent constable to death at one point to steal his clothes and abandoning his team to die at another. When the Martians arrive to destroy the Earth, Griffin happily sells out his race so he can rule alongside the invaders, giving away the locations of human artillery positions and the hiding places of his own teammates.

Thoughts?

MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
#203147: Feb 26th 2020 at 7:17:42 PM

Keep Anime!Xerosic.

IPP Wick Check created.
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#203148: Feb 26th 2020 at 7:20:07 PM

I'm not sure the "selfish and cowardly reimagination of the literary charachter" part works, from what I've read the original was already a cruel megalomaniac narcissist. And the reason he's called far worse is because he has way more of a rapsheet in LOEG(Being a serial rapist and selling out humanity)

Things are really about to get Fun around here
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#203149: Feb 26th 2020 at 8:08:39 PM

You know, I was watching a review of The Nutcracker in 3D and I have to ask if the Rat King's been discussed.

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#203150: Feb 26th 2020 at 8:15:02 PM

Alright. Got a doozy here. Not gonna mince words:

What is the work?

Fanscription. We're all very familiar with it by now and the subject here is the two-parter What If Qui Gon Jinn Trained Anakin Skywalker? and What If Qui Gon Jinn Was In Revenge of the Sith? They’re Exactly What It Says on the Tin. Writing is pretty much on the wall as to who the candidate is too.

Who is he and what has he done?

Sheev Palpatine is the Supreme Chancellor of the Galactic Republic who moonlights as the Dark Lord of the Sith, Darth Sidious. Barely appearing in Part 1 (which covers The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones), he is shown communicating in hologram with Count Dooku and heavily implied to have incited the Clone Wars as he did before. With Part 2, he eggs Anakin on during a duel as he did before, but this time Anakin fights and kills General Grievous instead. Palpatine eventually betrays Dooku and has him killed while also trying to target and kill Maul whom Dooku was training as his apprentice (Maul also killed Obi Wan Kenobi on Naboo years ago and lost his lower torso due to young Anakin’s Force outburst).

Palpatine manipulates Mace Windu into believing Anakin is willingly going to him to be advised on the Dark Side as before while also manipulating Anakin into believing he has to throw in with him to save his wife Padme Amidala. Palpatine plans this to when Maul goes after Padme as revenge against Anakin and while Palpatine fights Windu and kills the Jedi who came with Windu, Maul when confronted by Anakin fatally stabs Padme and Anakin kills Maul in his rage.

Anakin with the dying Padme arrives to Windu overcoming Palpatine and thinks Anakin did that to Padme. They fight and Palpatine (now scarred) electrocutes Windu and Anakin stabs Windu dead. With the still pregnant Padme having passed, Palpatine uses the Force to make Anakin think he’s bringing her back and thus, Anakin becomes Darth Vader. Palpatine then executes Order 66 and sends Anakin to kill all the Jedi as he did before.

While Palpatine once again overcomes Yoda in a duel, Qui Gon confronts Anakin on Mustafar and they duel. Anakin ends up with a scarred face and damaged throat by means of lightsaber, but despite all that, Qui Gon doesn’t give up on him completely and disappears the moment Anakin gets enough energy to strike him down. Qui Gon then as a Force Ghost helps Yoda identify the “another” as Anakin’s half-Brother Luke on Tatooine. Palpatine puts Anakin in the Vader suit and continues to emotionally blackmail him with the prospect of Padme’s life being preserved in a med pod or something.

Heinous standard?

Probably one of the cruelest iterations of the character ever.

Redeeming qualities? Mitigating factors?

You know it’s a joke to even consider it.

Verdict?

Definitely [tup].

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Feb 26th 2020 at 8:51:18 AM


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