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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#203076: Feb 26th 2020 at 6:45:49 AM

Yes to Uncle Rudi, happily.

[up] Depends on the continuity, I think. The original wasn't his sister.

Now, I've got my last Hellboy example for right now, from Volume 10, The Crooked Man. I give you Jeremiah Witkins.

Who is The Crooked Man?

In a volume taking place in the 1950s, Hellboy is in the Appalachian mountains in Virginia, in a shoutout to the works of Manly Wade Wellman...Jeremiah "Miser" Witkins was a profiteer in life, a twisted and greedy man who played off Indian and settlers against one another, stirring up the 'troubles' there, along with playing the British and colonists against one another in the revolutionary war. It got him hanged. But he came back to haunt the woods, becoming a figure seen as the devil himself. Hellboy meets Tom Ferrell, a young man who made a deal with the Crooked Man for a 'witch-bone', a powerful magic item that can be used to do evil...but Tom simply used it to get him through World War 2.

The Crooked Man? Bargains for souls, twisting the deals and taking countless innocents that he turns into gold coins, trapping with him while twisting their wishes and having them sow evil and discord through the world. Another local girl is Cora Fisher, twisted to darkness and witchery by her deal with the Crooked Man who is seriously angry that Tom isn't using that bone for evil and mischief. We see another example of his cruelty in how he responds to this: a witch named Effie Kolb, a beautiful young woman who's a happy devotee of the Crooked Man and initiated Tom into the circle is seen riding an old horse...turns out the Crooked Man sent her to give a present: the horse is a magically turned Old Man Ferrell, Tom's dad...who has been tortured and dies in front of Tom. The Crooked Man wants Tom and Cora's souls now, but Tom, accepting his own fate as being a fool refuses to allow Cora to burn for stumbling into 'witch business' through bad luck.

We see evidence of all Witkins has done through it...stirring up trouble, causing death between settlers, townspeople and monsters...Cora is more or less torn apart from the inside out, tricking Tom into using the power of the Witch-Bone to seal his control over him. Hellboy and Tom reach the domain of old, blind Reverend Watts who gives Cora's soul sanctuary while Witkins lays siege to the church with his army of damned souls and witches who can't enter the holy ground of the church, but wants Tom's soul. Watts and Witkins face on, with Witkins vowing "I will wear you out. I will heap it on you, son, a hundred times worse than what your daddy got!" Before he tries to corrupt old Watts, offering him a mountain of gold to buy the church, then to make him young and whole again. Watts boldly refuses, saying "I come fairly by my years and afflictions, I don't want nothin' else!"

Witkins calls up the dead, sending their tortured souls to kill the heroes...but Watts manages to reverse the power of the witch-bone and enchants a shovel, giving it to Hellboy who drives off and defeats Witkins with the witches fleeing. Hellboy and Tom wander to the mountain called The Hurricane, where Wikins dwells, and find his true form: a twisted, deformed monster hunched about the souls he's taken: jars and jars of gold coins....Tom throws the witch bone at him, the holy power now obliterating Witkins and the gold. Tom wonders if he set the souls free or if they're damned for hell with Witkins himself, to which Hellboy admits he doesn't know....but Witkins is gone and his power is broken.

Mitigating Qualities?

Now, in heinousness, I think Witkins is a great example of resources. he's not a world-ending threat, but he's just a backwoods devil and it's hard to imagine how he could be worse. Even as a human, he played wars to his own benefit, stirred up violence and trouble and has been collecting souls in the cruelest manner ever since, with torture, damnation, murder and corruption in full effect.

Nothing resembling decent qualities either. He's a nasty soul trader who can't stand his power not being used for evil.

Conclusion?

I'd give him an easy yes.

Edited by Lightysnake on Feb 26th 2020 at 6:46:37 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#203077: Feb 26th 2020 at 6:49:31 AM

[tup]the crooked man.

I know that. In the ova it's his mother, the live action film turned it into a reformed bully of akira's (Tyw only thing that stays consistent is the fact that it was someone he cared about) It's just his og manga version has her listed as his sister.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#203079: Feb 26th 2020 at 7:04:35 AM

Sure to Crooked Man.

I fixed Jinmen, I think.

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#203080: Feb 26th 2020 at 7:09:50 AM

[tup]The Crooked Man

Sorry, some sources called her Akira's sister, but it was all in non canon works, so it kinda mixed in my head and i called her Akira's sister in the writeup for original.

BTW, live action Jinmen doesn't count. He is a bit too genuine in his "I eat to survive" speech an is not sadistic as most other Jinmen versions.

Edited by VeryVileVillian on Feb 26th 2020 at 6:12:11 PM

emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#203081: Feb 26th 2020 at 7:12:10 AM

Yes to Crooked Man.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#203082: Feb 26th 2020 at 7:14:11 AM

BTW, should i create an image selection thing for Devilman page before we swap it?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#203083: Feb 26th 2020 at 7:14:27 AM

[up] Probably not, since the actual page isn't up yet, so it'll look odd. I'll make the request tonight, and then Image Pickin' can be done.

Here's what I'm thinking for the Hellboy order:

  • Azzael (Hellboy's father; GSV of the series?)
  • Herman von Klempt (a Big Bad; there since the beginning)
  • Nimue (a later Big Bad)
  • Hellboy: The Crooked Man (a one-shot)
  • Hellboy: The Sleeping and the Dead: Vampire Lord (a later one-shot)
  • B.P.R.D.: The Soul of Venice: Romulus Diovanni (a BPRD one-shot)

Edited by ACW on Feb 26th 2020 at 10:15:05 AM

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#203084: Feb 26th 2020 at 7:21:46 AM

[tup] to Jeremiah "The Crooked Man" Witkins

PureGrainAlkaSeltzer The Lord Of Walruses from 1200 Pennsylvania Ave Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
The Lord Of Walruses
#203085: Feb 26th 2020 at 7:31:09 AM

[tup] to Rudi and the Crooked Man

I have no idea what I am doing
SkyCat32 (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#203087: Feb 26th 2020 at 8:43:14 AM

[tup] to Rudi and the Crooked Man.

By the way, for one of the Jimnen entries, could you add the pothole Half the Man He Used to Be at "bisects"?

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#203089: Feb 26th 2020 at 9:14:46 AM

Huh platinum games is making a new game called project gg mecha. Which involves you talking control of a giant robot to fight kajui. Anyone interested in that.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
emperors Messenger from another dimension. Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Messenger from another dimension.
#203090: Feb 26th 2020 at 9:16:00 AM

On the topic of DCAU, I have to propose a cut. Derek Powers. His crimes are small potatoes compared to other C Ms, and even compared to other villains. The Joker (definitely a CM) has way less resources from Derek, and still he outdoes him in heinousness. I propose a cut.

Welcome to the world of greatest media!
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#203091: Feb 26th 2020 at 9:18:20 AM

[up][up] Fuck yeah I'm interested. cool

[down] Well we were just discussing SIMULACRA 2, which has a sentient malicious computer A.I. villain in it. Maybe that's what brought it on.

Edited by Tyk5919 on Feb 26th 2020 at 12:35:43 PM

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
lalalei2001 Since: Oct, 2009
#203092: Feb 26th 2020 at 9:29:58 AM

I had a dream where the smiley face from Minesweeper was approved as a CM somehow. (And it wasn't from a fanfic, it was from the game XD)

The Protomen enhanced my life.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#203093: Feb 26th 2020 at 9:32:45 AM

Hopefully that new Platinum game is for the PC, instead of that Nintendo-exclusive crap they did with Bayonetta 2 and 3.

As for Derek, he seems to have personal crimes, but you make a good point.

[down]gringrin

Edited by ACW on Feb 26th 2020 at 12:35:04 PM

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#203094: Feb 26th 2020 at 9:34:32 AM

[up] It's apparently gonna be on all main consoles: PC, Nintendo Switch, PS4, etc.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#203095: Feb 26th 2020 at 9:51:02 AM

Blight plans to sell a weapon to a terrorist organisation that fully planned to use it btw if I remember correctlythat Melts people slowly in An agonising way. No way to cutting him.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#203096: Feb 26th 2020 at 9:51:07 AM

DCAU!Joker attempted to destroy half of Metropolis, attempted to drive to insanity and mind rape millions, in the future he desired to make Cotham "his territory", which involved destruction of several of it parts through a giant laser from satellite and deaths of countless people, has many personal crimes (such as torturing and brainwashing Tim Drake, solely to hurt Batman) and repeatedly created schemes that endangered lives of many, i do think he outheinous Derek in both scale and personal level.

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#203097: Feb 26th 2020 at 9:55:16 AM

Keep Blight

Things are really about to get Fun around here
Ravok Son of Liberty from Big Shell Since: Jun, 2015 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Son of Liberty
#203098: Feb 26th 2020 at 10:00:06 AM

'Yes' to Rudi and the Crooked Man

Absolute no to cutting Blight/Powers. He is a horrible sociopath with several deaths on his hands, selling terrifying weapons to terrorists, and doing other horrible shit like experimenting on Mr. Freeze while falsely promising the poor man a "cure," trying to murder his own son, and of course, his personal horrible killing of Terry's father.

Blight is his own breed of monster, compare him to fellow businessman Lex Luthor and Powers' villainy stands out even more.

No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#203100: Feb 26th 2020 at 10:09:45 AM

The only thing I think giving Powers the push he needs is the stuff that happens in his debut—e.g. all that awful stuff with the bioweapon he wanted to sell and his murder of Terry's father. It's a fair cop otherwise Powers could probably be a lot a nastier than he is; most of his writeup is bloated with very tame acts of Corrupt Corporate Executive villainy, he doesn't actually kill Paxton until Paxton has tried to kill him (and Blight fully pushed that onto himself, even if Paxton is no saint) and basically pushes his dad's last thread of sanity off the edge in doing so, and Powers' big evil plan in the season finale is "leave me alone forever."

I weakly lean to keeping Powers. Weakly. I fully reserve the right to turn that vote around on a reconsideration.l because I've had Blight-related suspicions for a while.

Edited by Scraggle on Feb 26th 2020 at 11:13:44 AM


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