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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

TheMadCr0w (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Get out of here, STALKER
#202826: Feb 23rd 2020 at 12:09:28 PM

[up][up] I don't think re-proposing the Strange Boy is a good idea. I've said this to Elfen before, it's safer to just wait for the sequel. And don't worry, I played the game myself.

Edited by TheMadCr0w on Feb 23rd 2020 at 5:11:08 PM

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#202827: Feb 23rd 2020 at 12:10:24 PM

[up]Prequel, but okay.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
captainmarkle Limited Patients from Behind you Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#202828: Feb 23rd 2020 at 1:25:34 PM

tongueJust noticed that Cunning Man from I Shall Wear Midnight has been approved and listed on the YMMV page but is missing from the CM page for literature... Though if my next EP is successful Discworld might get its own page... We'll see. No rush either way.

Edit: sorry, I'm a fecking idiot. Don't trope while tired.

Edited by captainmarkle on Feb 24th 2020 at 1:22:16 AM

Trans rights are human rights. If you don't think that, please leave.
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#202829: Feb 23rd 2020 at 1:26:34 PM

Are you sure. Did you check Literature: D to G.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#202830: Feb 23rd 2020 at 1:43:31 PM

Yeah, what [up] said. It's at the end of the Discworld tree.

Edited by ACW on Feb 23rd 2020 at 4:43:38 AM

CJCroen1393 Pokemon Trainer from The Western Interior Seaway (Ancient one) Relationship Status: A gay little love melody
Pokemon Trainer
#202831: Feb 23rd 2020 at 2:04:43 PM

I'm back! Sorry, I was asleep ^_^; And I was also pretty concerned about the length of my original EP, sorry, hehe—anyway, here's the write up I came up with yesterday—I made three different write ups until I was satisfied, which hasn't happened for these kinds of things before. I'll take it to the drafts for potential revisions:

  • Fullmetal Alchemist fanfiction, Asylum: Dante is as vile as her canon counterpart. Posing as a kindly old psychologist, Dante is secretly a centuries old alchemist who has been prolonging her own life by alchemically transferring her soul into the bodies of younger female patients admitted to the titular asylum every fifty to seventy years and killing her old body, repeating the process indefinitely. To compensate for the immense amount of power necessary for such a feat, Dante admits patients with large amounts of alchemic power—usually children and teenagers—and siphons their power from them through an agonizing process that slowly kills them. Two of her past victims were her own alchemy student Izumi Curtis, who fell terminally ill as a result of the process, and Izumi's young son, Wrath, who eventually went catatonic. When Roy Mustang falls ill in the midst of an escape attempt and has to be left behind, Dante lures Edward, Alphonse, Riza and Havoc into a trap when they come to rescue him, imprisoning them in a transmutation circle that painfully extracts Edward's alchemy and slowly kills his friends and brother. In one last attempt to break Edward's spirit, Dante dresses the homunculus Sloth up as Edward's dead mother, tormenting him with his guilt and trauma over having failed to properly bring her back to life.

(Good lord, this is also kinda long; made a slight adjustment already to trim it down, hope that helps)

Edited by CJCroen1393 on Feb 23rd 2020 at 2:11:00 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#202832: Feb 23rd 2020 at 2:08:48 PM

Any way to trim it down at all?

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#202833: Feb 23rd 2020 at 2:30:53 PM

Here, I trimmed it a bit

  • Fullmetal Alchemist fanfiction Asylum: Dante is as vile as her canon counterpart. Posing as a kindly old psychologist, Dante is secretly a centuries old alchemist who has been prolonging her own life by alchemically transferring her soul into the bodies of young female patients. In order to do this Dante admits patients with strong alchemic power—usually children and teenagers—and drains their power in a painful and lethal process. Two of her past victims were her own alchemy student Izumi Curtis, who fell terminally ill, and Izumi's son, Wrath, who eventually went catatonic. When Roy Mustang falls ill in the midst of an escape attempt and has to be left behind, Dante lures Edward, Alphonse, Riza and Havoc into a trap when they come to rescue him, imprisoning them in a transmutation circle that painfully extracts Edward's alchemy and slowly kills his friends and brother. In one last attempt to break Edward's spirit, Dante dresses the homunculus Sloth up as Edward's dead mother, tormenting him with his guilt and trauma over having failed to bring her back to life.

Edited by papyru30 on Feb 23rd 2020 at 5:20:45 AM

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#202834: Feb 23rd 2020 at 3:06:55 PM

By the way, ~CG Croen 1393, I made a query on Ask The Tropers on how to add parenthesis to a work title. People responded, so now you can know how to make that page you wanted. When you have done so, please replace the link on your post with the work page.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#202835: Feb 23rd 2020 at 3:10:35 PM

I actually knew about the parentheses, but that DID answer my question of what to do with the other one.

Batch is on the previous page.

Edited by ACW on Feb 23rd 2020 at 6:44:42 AM

CJCroen1393 Pokemon Trainer from The Western Interior Seaway (Ancient one) Relationship Status: A gay little love melody
Pokemon Trainer
#202836: Feb 23rd 2020 at 4:00:27 PM

[up][up][up]I like that rewrite! Thank you!

Edited by CJCroen1393 on Feb 23rd 2020 at 4:05:03 AM

CJCroen1393 Pokemon Trainer from The Western Interior Seaway (Ancient one) Relationship Status: A gay little love melody
Pokemon Trainer
#202837: Feb 23rd 2020 at 4:03:55 PM

Also, I kinda already made the trope page ^_^; I think I did so before getting that reply, Master N, so it's fine. I've added it to the draft.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#202838: Feb 23rd 2020 at 4:04:11 PM

papyru, since CJ's given the okay to the rewrite, please add it to the Drafts. I've requested the parentheses thing for the custom Wiki Word.

Twiddler (On A Trope Odyssey)
#202839: Feb 23rd 2020 at 4:07:40 PM

On Marvel Cinematic Universe, any objection to changing the Mad Scientist pothole on Daniel Whitehall to Mad Doctor?

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#202840: Feb 23rd 2020 at 4:49:01 PM

Well, i watched Cyborg 009 vs Devilman crossover OVA series (which is set in it's own universe) and aside from one very well known guy from Devilman, nobody stand out. All villains mostly just try to kill the heroes, the only notable heinous deeds are:

Lilith killing several people at the party to use them for demons as hosts

Dr. Adams Teufel did few experiments on humans in the past with lethal results and was willing to release a powerful demon Atun upon the world, just because he wanted to create "a perfect Cyborg model" (which is demon fused with Cyborg's body), but even if we stretch any vague consequence of it maybe endangering the whole world, Adams was shown in the flashback image holding his son's mortally wounded body in panic and used Cyborg program to basically "ressurect" him, so he doesn't count.

Atun himself is extremely generic, despite being hyped through the OVA as "Amon's greatest archenemy". All he does after being freed is murders some scientists (who freed him), Adams included, and tries to kill the heroes (killing Adam's Cyborg team, which included Adam's son, in the battle) and talks about "filling world with sorrow" (something some vague, i don't even count it as anything).

Well, now we get to a well known guy from Devilman, it is ofcourse Jinmen, who only featured in the Devilman part of the prologue (with Cyborg 009 part being 009 fighting Apollo). This prologue part is adaptation of manga chapter of original Devilman manga, where Jinmen faced Akira.

The only reason i don't propose Jinmen here is because it is way too much of a direct adaptation of his part in original manga, thus doesn't distinct enough, but boy in his 3 minutes of screentime Jinmen basically cements himself as the most heinous creature in this OVA series, with dozens of people eaten and shown to be kept in absolute agony in his shell (Akira's little sister included) and absolutely counts as CM as usual.

Basically the main reason i bring him here is because i want to use this way better looking image of him for Devilman page.

papyru30 from Colorado for summer break Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
#202841: Feb 23rd 2020 at 4:52:46 PM

@ Twiddler That sounds like a good change to me.

[up] I like that image, I haven't seen the original proposed image though.

Edited by papyru30 on Feb 23rd 2020 at 5:54:01 AM

Scraggle Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#202842: Feb 23rd 2020 at 5:00:06 PM

I believe our original image was OVA!Amon munching down on a child. That was before we wiped the first page.

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#202843: Feb 23rd 2020 at 5:03:52 PM

Because we cut Aerys II Targaryen, what should we do about this?

Hell Is Empty: Aerys II Targaryen is as repulsive as his book incarnation. Aerys burns people alive as punishment for various crimes, including petty theft. Aroused by this, he often rapes Queen Rhaella afterwards. Arranging a marriage between his son Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark, he finds that Lyanna reminds him of Johanna Lannister, developing an unhealthy attraction to her. Burning his Hand Qarlton Cheslton alive for calling him mad after Aerys decides to have caches of wildfire hidden throughout King's Landing, Aerys begins to abuse Viserys as well when he interrupts his rape of Rhaella and has Rhaegar bring Tywin Lannister and his bannermen to King's Landing to be executed when he suspects them of treason. When he sentences a child to be burned to death, Lyanna, now heavily pregnant, challenges him to a trial by combat. Aerys forces Lyanna herself to fight, and chooses fire as his champion, molesting Lyanna beforehand and informing her she will bare his child after she gives birth. The child burns to death and Lyanna miscarries, Jaime Lannister killing Aerys to save her. This heavily traumatizes Lyanna and almost tears her marriage with Rhaegar apart.

Edited by nwotyzal on Feb 23rd 2020 at 5:11:24 AM

Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
Enid Sinclair
#202844: Feb 23rd 2020 at 5:06:38 PM

[up] Nothing. That's a a fanfic right. So not Canon. So unless his redeeming qualities are there, just change the first sentence.

Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#202845: Feb 23rd 2020 at 5:06:57 PM

[up] I don't think that needs more than a minor rewrite, if that.

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#202846: Feb 23rd 2020 at 5:09:37 PM

[up][up][up]Maybe just add that he "lacks the redeeming qualities that he has in the books" or "lacks the love for his children that he has in the books"?

Edited by VeryVileVillian on Feb 23rd 2020 at 4:09:48 PM

nwotyzal Since: Sep, 2019
#202847: Feb 23rd 2020 at 5:10:12 PM

So how about this?

Hell Is Empty: Aerys II Targaryen commits the same atrocities as his canon counterpart, but lacks the love of his children he does in canon. Aerys burns people alive as punishment for various crimes, including petty theft. Aroused by this, he often rapes Queen Rhaella afterwards. Arranging a marriage between his son Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark, he finds that Lyanna reminds him of Johanna Lannister, developing an unhealthy attraction to her. Burning his Hand Qarlton Cheslton alive for calling him mad after Aerys decides to have caches of wildfire hidden throughout King's Landing, Aerys begins to abuse Viserys as well when he interrupts his rape of Rhaella and has Rhaegar bring Tywin Lannister and his bannermen to King's Landing to be executed when he suspects them of treason. When he sentences a child to be burned to death, Lyanna, now heavily pregnant, challenges him to a trial by combat. Aerys forces Lyanna herself to fight, and chooses fire as his champion, molesting Lyanna beforehand and informing her she will bare his child after she gives birth. The child burns to death and Lyanna miscarries, Jaime Lannister killing Aerys to save her. This heavily traumatizes Lyanna and almost tears her marriage with Rhaegar apart.

Tell me if I should change anything

Edited by nwotyzal on Feb 23rd 2020 at 5:14:10 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#202848: Feb 23rd 2020 at 5:22:44 PM

Hold on... does the fanfic explicitly do away with his redeeming quality? I don’t like putting a version of the character up because the work just took a sliver of his character that happens to now showcase his affection for his dead children.

falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
#202849: Feb 23rd 2020 at 5:23:26 PM

[up]Same.

[down]World of Ice and Fire was published in 2014; this fic was published in 2015 and finished in 2016.

Edited by falcontalons on Feb 23rd 2020 at 5:28:46 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#202850: Feb 23rd 2020 at 5:24:33 PM

Given the quality was revealed in World of Ice and Fire, I'm not inclined to judge the fic by the same standards when it was published before World was ever released. I don't think we should hold these to the same standard, it's not like, say, Star Wars with an over-monstrous Vader where love for his son is explicitly part of his shown qualities in the canon work.

Unless the fic explicitly mentions the kids, I'm inclined to believe authorial intent is for Aerys to be entirely equal as he's portrayed in the ASOIAF flashbacks.

Edited by Lightysnake on Feb 23rd 2020 at 5:28:56 AM


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