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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#202551: Feb 21st 2020 at 8:29:35 AM

[up][up][up]Tengu is a demon, who is powerful enough to change the whole planet on his own, Ch'rell is just an alien with a big exoskeleton, who has a huge army. Obviously by definition, due to Tengu also commanding his own army of undead and demons and the way he was hiped through the entire season, Tengu SHOULD be able to do WAY more damage and stuff than Ch'rell did (both in current timeline and in Bad Future).

Edited by VeryVileVillian on Feb 21st 2020 at 7:34:26 PM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#202552: Feb 21st 2020 at 8:30:50 AM

And with that said, I'll DEFINITELY toss in a vote to cut Tengu.

Awesomekid42 (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: It was only a kiss
#202553: Feb 21st 2020 at 8:50:47 AM

Sure, cut Tengu.

Also, since I reserved it, I just saw the season finale of Harley Quinn (2019). PM me for discussion.

KingofNightmares Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
captainmarkle Limited Patients from Behind you Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#202555: Feb 21st 2020 at 9:07:31 AM

I'll say we cut Tengu - I know I initially argued keep, but on reflection he does seem to fall flat compared to some others, sadism aside.

(also nice to see "Criminal Minds Syndrome" is still a thing)

Trans rights are human rights. If you don't think that, please leave.
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#202556: Feb 21st 2020 at 9:09:10 AM

Not to derail anything or draw out a discussion, but re-readig the EP and thinking back on it, it's just sort of dawning on me about Zsasz was that as far as independent villainy goes, he doesn't really do all that much outside Roman. His own personality and motives aside, he seems too dependant on Roman when it comes to crimes.

So what make Zsasz different from, say, Diana Sydney, or Tamora Monroe, or Mickey Altieri ?

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#202557: Feb 21st 2020 at 9:22:38 AM

Because he’s a killer on his spare time, out of choice, enjoys it and happily throws himself into it and makes the decision to carve Cassie open himself

SkyCat32 (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#202559: Feb 21st 2020 at 9:36:03 AM

Slight yes on Zsasz though didn't really feel it.

Edited by AustinDR on Feb 21st 2020 at 9:36:21 AM

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#202560: Feb 21st 2020 at 9:41:44 AM

Leaning "cut" towards Tengu, but before I commit, I'd like to ask something: does he stand out in terms of sadism or personal cruelty?

InfinityLeague IL from New England Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Desperate
IL
#202561: Feb 21st 2020 at 9:43:52 AM
Thumped: Please see The Rules . This is a warning that this post is the sort of thing that will get you suspended.
MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#202562: Feb 21st 2020 at 9:48:02 AM

[up]Already reserved. Also, you have to wait a little, so as to not spoil others.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
AFreakyDude Since: Jul, 2015
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#202564: Feb 21st 2020 at 9:53:03 AM

[up][up] ALSO, that's not even an effortpost, it's a writeup, and too long.

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#202565: Feb 21st 2020 at 9:53:09 AM

Leaning "cut" towards Tengu, but before I commit, I'd like to ask something: does he stand out in terms of sadism or personal cruelty?

No. Ch'rell and several other villains in the series outclass him in that category as well. Tengu Shredder is just seems kinda bog standard compared to all monsters, who are in the list of 2003 series.

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#202566: Feb 21st 2020 at 9:55:32 AM

[up] Alright. No harm in making sure. Voting to cut Tengu Shredder.

CaptainPinkiePie from Equestria with love Since: Mar, 2019 Relationship Status: Brony
#202567: Feb 21st 2020 at 10:22:55 AM

[tup] Roman Sionis and Victor Zsasz. About time we got iterations of these two that are Truer to the Text (their unique partnership notwithstanding).

Also, cut Tengu Shredder. Ch'rell practically blows him out of the water anyway.

Edited by CaptainPinkiePie on Feb 21st 2020 at 2:23:39 PM

Captain Pinkie Pie! Nah, just Pinkie Pie.
VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#202568: Feb 21st 2020 at 11:04:25 AM

One more Devilman EP from me

What's the work?

The Apocalypse of Devilman: Strange Days is a 6 chapter manga, created by Yu Kinutani, the creator of Amon: The Darkside of the Devilman. Taking place in its own universe, which is one of the endless loops that Devilman setting is trapped in, the story follows Kira Udoa and Kasuka Ryuu, a talented members of a rock group, who are also Devilmen (humans, who merged with demons). The story is set during demon invasion, when demons stated appearing in the world, possessing people. As humanity became paranoid and started "witch hunts", resulting in deaths of many innocents, Kira and Kasuka try to protect their loved ones and end up on opposing sides of the last battle between demons and Devilman, as Kira joined Satan and Kasuka joined Akira.

My candidate is a nameless Expy of probably the most famous CM of the franchise - Jinmen-like turtle demon.

Who is the nameless turtle demon?

A villain of second chapter, who appeared at the very last pages of the first chapter, this turtle demon is this world and this specific loop version of Jinmen, who has the very same love of torturing and killing people. Having eaten dozens of people, this turtle demon trapped them within his shell in a state of absolute agony, intending to keep them that way for presumably eternity (certainly for a very long time). Having chasing the child, whose family he's eaten, he stumbles upon Kira and Kasuka (who rush toward the child, after they heard her screaming) and decided to "add them to his collection". As Kira and Kasuka transform into their Devilman forms, they started to battle this demon. Demon sadistically bites and cuts them until the mother of the child convinces the duo to use their powers to burn the demon (since by her own words all victims of the demon are already dead and can't return to being normal anyway). Kira and Kasuka kill the demon, who asks why they would do that to a fellow demon, even though he tried to eat them literally seconds before.

Heinousness?

Even through it's a story set in its own universe, due to a time loop thing, the standard is quite high, due to the whole "witch hunts" thing and Satan and demons wiping out humanity after some time. But even if we take into account the whole franchise, this turtle demon stands out, being just as heinous as Jinmen (due to being his version from that time loop, but simply left unnamed) and his Fate Worse than Death method of torturing people. Plus he is a villain of a single chapter (the only one in this manga) and on lower on of a spectrum than Satan and Amon.

Mitigating Qualities?

None. He claims that demons shouldn't kill other demons, when Kira and Kasuka burned him, but considering that he literally tried to eat them and torture them for eternity, this falls flat.

Conclusion?

I will say Yes.

Edited by VeryVileVillian on Feb 21st 2020 at 10:07:38 PM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#202569: Feb 21st 2020 at 11:08:40 AM

[tup] Jinmen. Why didn't they call him Jinmen?

SkyCat32 (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#202572: Feb 21st 2020 at 11:09:52 AM

Also, do we wanna give Jinmen his own tree like we do for Gul'dan?

VeryVileVillian Since: Dec, 2017
#202574: Feb 21st 2020 at 11:14:30 AM

[up][up]We might as well do it. Considering that there is already 4 versions of him. Original, OVA one, Devilman vs Hades one and this one, if approved.

Edited by VeryVileVillian on Feb 21st 2020 at 10:17:07 PM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009

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