During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Okay, I am just gonna make this EP to change the subject as has been suggested.
What's the work?
Alice Mare is an RPG Maker horror game and novel. It stars Allen Lleywellyn, an amnesiac boy who is one of six children (well, actually five- one of them has a Split Personality) adopted by a kindly caregiver they call Teacher. One night, everyone falls into a deep sleep, and wake up in a Dream World. Now, Allen must help the others escape, while helping them confront their dark pasts.
Now, I already got up the Cheshire Cat. He has a helper, however, and while i initially dismissed him, after the unexpected success of my Forest of Drizzling Rain EP, I think he is at least worth another look.
Who is the White Rabbit? What does he do?
The White Rabbit is the supposed Big Good of the game. Allen first meets him in the dream world, and he tells Allen to find the World Keys in order to escape the dream. As we later find out, however, Allen finding the Keys requires him to open the hearts of the other children... by digging into their Dark and Troubled Past and re-traumatizing them. All this does is allow the demons to consume their souls, so the Rabbit se been deceiving Allen all along.
Anways, like the Cat, the Rabbit is a Karma Houdini.
Mitigating Qualities?
He acts very friendly and polite to Allen, but the novel indicates him to be Faux Affably Evil- his politeness is described as fake, and his smile is described as attempting to look warm and inviting but just looking really evil instead. He and Cheshire are in a Big Bad Duumvirate, but neither of them like each other.
Heinousness?
Now, this is where I am kinda unsure. The Cheshire Cat is The Heavy of the game, so he does a lot more direct villainy. The White Rabbit, by contrast, is a Non-Action Big Bad who never leaves his spot in the dream world. His villainy is more indirect. That being said, he manipulates Allen into exposing the kids to their nightmares, he is implied to share the soul of whomever is sacrificed with the Cheshire Cat as a meal, and he seems to support everything the Cheshire Cat does. So maybe it is similar to Nagi and Smith or Gharnef and Yatsufusa Hatanaka, in that while one of them does somewhat more stuff than the other, they generally share enough crimes to both qualify. Essentially, I had written off the White Rabbit for not being direct in his villainy compared to the Cat, but after that other guy got up despite me also having similar reservations...
Verdict?
At the very least, rather than simply take my word for it, I want someone to play the game itself (download link here
, Steam version here
, and beginning of Lets Play here
) and read the novel
so I can get a second opinion.
Mmm...not sure on the Rabbit. Seems a bit bare bones in the EP, but...eh, I suppose.
My final word on Aerys: I commend Hoglet for going against the grain, to a long-held EP for suspicions that, honestly are completely valid, and it's something we should discuss. Likewise, Imperial disagreed and had some good points. I don't agree with his argument, but I enjoy that a healthy and respectful discussion was had. I never want it to be "So and so proposed, so it must be kept/cut". That said, it has been going on for the better part of a day, so when that happens, I think it's best we all pull back, let people vote and just go with consensus. I think we're all good, right?
Edited by Lightysnake on Feb 20th 2020 at 7:18:31 AM
It's cutting close enough to midnight here. Let's talk Birds of Prey (2020).
What's the setting?
The eighth film in the DCEU, Margot Robbie returns as Harley Quinn to hijack the spotlight in a film cataloguing the aftermath of her breakup with her “Mister J.” between Suicide Squad and this movie, and her attempting to start her own career as a supervillain afterwards. Unfortunately, in declaring herself independent, she's removed her protection label; she pissed off a lot of people at the Joker's side, and only her boyfriend gave her the immunity to all of Gotham's East End seeking a piece of her ass. Harley bumps into a mouthy young pickpocket—this film's version of Cassandra Cain—who swallowed a valuable diamond, leading to her becoming a primary target for our film's villain today. Everyone say hello to Ewan McGregor's Roman Sionis, AKA Black Mask.
Who is Roman Sionis? What has he done?
The sadistic, flamboyant crime kingpin of Gotham's East End publicly known as the son of Janus Corporation's wealthy CEO, Roman is the most powerful crime lord in the city behind closed doors. His hands are dipped in every illegal doing on throughout Gotham—bribery, drug trafficking, drugs, you name it—and the East End of Gotham is a crime-ridden hellhole in no small part due to his corruption. This isn't enough for Roman and he constantly strives for more power, seeking to control the entire city. Roman's enemies—and “enemies” is a very encompassing term considering Sionis has a hair-trigger that goes off at random—face very grisly fates if Roman can't simply buy them off. Roman's first chronological appearance in the film has him attempting to buy out a crime lord named Mr. Keo. When Keo refuses Roman's bribes, Roman kidnaps him and his family and introduces Keo to his other favorite recurrent hobby; Cold-Blooded Torture. Specifically, torturing people to death by cutting off their faces while they're still alive.
Roman has his pet hitman Zsasz flay Keo's face off while he's alive and screaming and cut his wife's throat, before they move to the daughter. The message has been sent, Roman figures, and he opts to spare the daughter—until she sees she has a snot bubble in her nose from crying so hard. Disgusted, Roman has Zsasz flay the daughter's face as well. This sort of hobby is nothing new for him; he walks out from a later session dabbing a bit of blood from his face like he just got out from the gym, and when Harley Quinn leaves Roman without a driver, Roman comes perilously close to doing the exact same thing to her.
Roman only stops because of one reason: the Bertinelli family diamond, said to be encoded with a fortune that would allow one to control all of Gotham. Roman had previously funded and masterminded the massacre of the entire family years earlier, the innocent children not spared and the only survivor, the young Helena Bertinelli (Huntress) left an orphan because of this. Harley offers to find Roman the diamond (inside Cassandra Cain) in exchange for her life, and Roman acquiesces—before sending out a mercenary bounty on Cain anyway to make it more fun. Roman fully intends on killing Harley anyway and clearly has no plan of sparing Cain herself so long as he can get the diamond inside of her, even if he has to cut it out of her intestinal lining.
Roman's other henchwoman, his nightclub's singer Dinah Lance (Black Canary) is forced to become his new driver. Dinah bears witness to quite a bit of Roman's casual cruelty (and curious artistic fascination, including his unabashed glee for shrunken heads) which comes to a head when Roman flips his lid on a woman in his nightclub he thinks is laughing at her. Roman forces the woman to stand on top of a table and dance, then forces her boyfriend to strip her, psychologically torturing the sobbing woman in front of the nightclub to slake his hysterical fury. Black Canary betrays Roman, and the moment she does Roman decides to don his black mask, come down and kill her personally. In the final battle, Roman tries to make a getaway with a knife to Cassandra Cain's throat, but Cain's pickpocketing skills come in handy, letting her pluck the pin of Harley's grenade under Roman's nose. Harley sends the wicked shit over the edge of a pier—grenade in hand. Ludicrous Gibs ensue.
Any mitigating factors?
Sionis clears the standard of the DCEU—he's got no superpowers, and even on the in-universe crime lord hierarchy Black Mask is lower than the Joker who is very clearly not as bad as him—and no other factors really hold up. His daddy issues aren't ever portrayed in a way that's remotely sympathetic, nor do they actually come close to justifying anyway. They're mostly there to explain Sionis' raging hateboner for families.
The only potential concerning thing is his relationship with his head hitman, Roman, which was framed in a way that was ambiguously homosexual and Harley refers to Zsasz as Roman's “BFF”. Still, I think you'd really have to stretch to take anything actually redeeming out of the equation; the connotations are played up much more with Zsasz (and Lighty will explain why that's not disqualifying) and Roman himself indeed never hints that he genuinely loves Zsasz—Word Of God describes Zsasz and Roman's relationship as based on a “love of anarchy” and I agree with that. Roman loves Zsasz's bloodthirstiness and his capacity for violence rather than as a person, and he gets touchy-feely and affectionate with Dinah in the same way he does Zsasz. Doesn't stop him from declaring her dead the instant she turns on his for being a violent nutbag. When the relationship is effectively shown as sick, creepy, possessive, and bereft of any actual “love” on Zsasz's side, can we safely assume the same for Roman?
Conclusion?
Keep him. Easily.
Edited by Scraggle on Feb 20th 2020 at 8:31:49 AM
Black Mask. An VERY easy keep. Also, I think this is Ewan Mc Gregor’s first CM.
Edited by Michealthehero21 on Feb 20th 2020 at 7:35:32 AM
Permission to chop this? As I know I won't be the only one asking.
- Even Evil Has Loved Ones: He may be an unredeemable bastard, but he's shown to be very affectionate with Zsasz, treating him more like a friend than an employee. And while his feelings for Canary are entirely one-sided, he does seem genuinely fond of her, and absolutely heartbroken by her betrayal.
For the White Rabbit...
"That being said, he manipulates Allen into exposing the kids to their nightmares, he is implied to share the soul of whomever is sacrificed with the Cheshire Cat as a meal, and he seems to support everything the Cheshire Cat does."
...Is that it? Frankly I'm not even sure that comes close to the heinous standard especially when we already have the Cat as a Complete Monster and he does things a thousand times worse than that in the same game. I'm a firm
right now unless new evidence is presented
to Roman. Still hoping for a DEATH BATTLE! between him and Johann.
Speaking of comic book movies, I'm starting to lean towards the opinion we should have a page for non-MCU Marvel films (with Monster.Marvel Cinematic Universe as a subpage, of course). We certainly have plenty of characters to populate it.
Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Feb 20th 2020 at 7:40:56 AM
at risk of bringing up the debate again the reason we voted against him wasn't his mental illness, its that he genuinely loved most of his children and honored his vow he made to his wife and the high priest and nothing in the text disproves these redeeming qualities
Edited by WaryHoglet on Feb 20th 2020 at 7:48:47 AM
Yeah, how much of a body count/soul eating some the Rabbit have, N?
To carry on from that, I give you...Victor Zsasz
Also, song villains: I'm more lenient to music that forms its own thing, as it's a completely different form of media than prose. What I allow to fly for a song villain, that....say, spends its time constructing a narrative or describing a person? The limitations of the medium are something I take into account. A short story that's just "bad guy kills people" is something I'm less keen on.
Who is Victor Zsasz?
The right hand man and obsessive fanatic of Roman Sionis, Zsasz is a mob hitman and serial killer, who maintains elements of his comic counterparts sadistic nihilist behavior, in viewing life as pointless and taking others out of it. In his spare time, and in his job, Zsasz is a killer who enjoys murdering women and helpless victims, tallying a mark on himself for each victims. And he's covered with them, just FYI.
Now, in the past when Roman arranged for the Bertinelli family to be eliminated? Zsasz was a gunman who gleefully executed them, including what he thought was the young daughter Helena...ever since then, Zsasz has been by the side of Roman Sionis, killing for him. Now, when Roman is slowly organizing the underworld under his control, Zsasz is the one doing the knife work with utterly sadistic and vile relish...when Keo is taken, Zsasz is the one carving his face away, then his wife, then when Roman is disgusted by the daughter? Zsasz takes her face off as well, while grinning like a lunatic.
Now, Zsasz is not thrilled when Roman incorporates Dinah Lance as part of his team, nor with the crossbow killer stuff, things with Harley...Zsasz is obsessive about being the only one by Roman, fanatic, even. As things proceed, Zsasz ends up hunting down young Cassandra Cain to the home of Harley Quinn. With Cassandra having swallowed the Bertinelli diamond...well, Zsasz decides with Dinah, Harley, Cassie etc? Murder them all and carve Cassie open to get his hands on the diamond, ranting how only he can take care of Roman...when Helena, Huntress, bursts in, fires an arrow into him and Zsasz is soon overwhelmed and stabbed to death.
Mitigating Qualities?
Well, heinousness? Zsasz is the muscle for Roman and most evil deeds Roman has done? Zsasz holds the knife. Despite being a flunky...Zsasz is a sadist who is in it of his own will. He's gleeful about the murder and is in it patially to kill people himself. Zsasz loves the 'release' of murder, and tattoos the victims on his body for him to remember. No, heinousness is ot an issue given he's only a street level thug with knives who nevertheless has an enormous body count, plus the torture. Independently, he decides the best solution to a kid swallowing the diamond is carving her open.
Now, despite the BFF thing, Zsasz launches into a rant where his attachment to Roman is selfish possession. Roman 'belongs' to Zsasz, only Zsasz can handle him and take care of him. I can't call it true affecton or love because their devotion to one another is twisted, unhealthy and based on the mutual sadism and cruelty with Zsasz viewing Roman as someone who only belongs to him.
Conclusion?
I'd say a happy yes to the cinematic Zsasz
Edited by Lightysnake on Feb 20th 2020 at 7:53:23 AM

Both images work for me.