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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

WaryHoglet Since: Feb, 2016
#202401: Feb 20th 2020 at 4:06:17 PM

[up][up] Thats not exactly relevant to the main discussion that Aerys is disqualified because he loved his non Rheagar children. He can enjoy his cruelty and be awful and still have redeeming qualities that disqualify him. Its Complete Monster not 95% monster

Edited by WaryHoglet on Feb 20th 2020 at 4:09:06 AM

MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#202402: Feb 20th 2020 at 4:49:53 PM

The term is 99% monster, but yeah.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
WaryHoglet Since: Feb, 2016
#202403: Feb 20th 2020 at 5:10:39 PM

[up] I don't think that required a correction lol I just used a slightly different percentage but thanks?

Anyway I did look for the passage Imperial Majesty said for keeping Aerys and indeed it is there in the book...but it actually is a few years before the incident where one of his sons died as a baby and he fell into despair.

And then a few pages after that it says

"Afterwards, King Aerys fasted for a fortnight and made a walk of repentance across the city to pray with the High Septon. On his return, His Grace announced that henceforth he would only sleep with his lawful wife, Queen Rhaella. If the chronicles can be believed, Aerys remained true to this vow, losing all interest in other women from that day."

So...he clearly just doesn't qualify right? With that passage I don't even think there's a reasonable argument to keep him anymore so I hope this settles the debate lol

Edited by WaryHoglet on Feb 20th 2020 at 6:56:58 AM

falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
#202404: Feb 20th 2020 at 5:12:19 PM

Yes to Azzael.

No to Torch, Shaw, and Two-Toed Tom. Cut Aerys.

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#202405: Feb 20th 2020 at 5:20:45 PM

Hey remember when I said actually quantifying the subjective topic of just how evil a villain is if we’re not talking CM was an exercise in futility? Yeah... that.

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#202406: Feb 20th 2020 at 5:27:01 PM

Cut Aerys.

We good now everyone? Can we put this to bed and stop dancing in circles over the same thing over one single character from one single book series?

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#202407: Feb 20th 2020 at 5:28:52 PM

Alright then. If that's the sequence of events and there's no indication that he changed his mind again, then I guess he can be cut.

Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Feb 20th 2020 at 5:40:15 AM

WaryHoglet Since: Feb, 2016
#202408: Feb 20th 2020 at 5:29:00 PM

[up][up] The purpose of this thread is literally to debate cases like this so I don't see what the point is of the hostility. The discussion may have gone on a bit long but I think that's preferable then just instantly thumbs upping or downing everyone after 5 minutes because another user said so

Edited by WaryHoglet on Feb 20th 2020 at 5:29:15 AM

Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#202409: Feb 20th 2020 at 5:30:17 PM

[up] There's a difference between a discussion and dragging something out for nearly seven pages.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
WaryHoglet Since: Feb, 2016
#202410: Feb 20th 2020 at 5:31:57 PM

[up] I'm sorry if the discussion went on a bit long but I dont see any need for this hostility and again, I would personally much rather have discussions like that then:

EP is posted

Lighty: I don't think they qualify

10 people instantly thumbs down

Repeat

(No offense to you Lighty I'm just using your name to make the point lol)

Edited by WaryHoglet on Feb 20th 2020 at 5:32:11 AM

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#202411: Feb 20th 2020 at 5:44:40 PM

What's the problem, Tyk? I simply wanted to make sure nothing was being overlooked.

Honestly, I'm still not entirely sure this cut is warranted. It seems to me like he might have slipped back into that mindset later on. Still, if there's no textual evidence for it, or any other indications of it in canon, then I suppose we can cut him like we're Jaime Lannister.

WaryHoglet Since: Feb, 2016
#202413: Feb 20th 2020 at 5:57:12 PM

[up] I wasn't implying everyone follows one person's opinion as much as pointing out that there seems to be some aversion to having actual discussions beyond instantaneous yes's and no's, but whatever lol

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#202414: Feb 20th 2020 at 5:57:17 PM

Does anyone have a candidate to propose so that we can move on from this?

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#202415: Feb 20th 2020 at 5:58:29 PM

Honestly, I'm still not entirely sure this cut is warranted. It seems to me like he might have slipped back into that mindset later on.

This right here. You just said you're fine with cutting him—begrudgingly, but understandably, but now it's like "Well, I dunno. I still feel like he might count." This just feels like Devil's Advocate behavior.

Look I don't mind villains being reevaluated. I don't mind lengthy discussions. But there are times where, even after long, lengthy discussions have taken place, and there have been loads of evidence explaining why someone would or wouldn't count as a CM, some people say "Oh yeah, I totally understand what you're saying. 100%. But I'm gonna repeat myself anyway."

If people just repeat their same viewpoints, or just reword their viewpoints that lead back to the same viewpoint that everything started with, that doesn't feel like a discussion to me. If people just repeat what they've already been saying, nothing is gonna get accomplished. We're just gonna be spinning in circles until a mod gets involved and they force us to end the discussion—which has happened before. More than once.

Edited by Tyk5919 on Feb 20th 2020 at 8:58:55 AM

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#202416: Feb 20th 2020 at 6:00:23 PM

This had literally lasted for a couple pages.

WaryHoglet Since: Feb, 2016
#202417: Feb 20th 2020 at 6:01:17 PM

[up][up] I will agree that being like "I just have a feeling that he might have been lying even if there's no evidence for it" feels like just being contrarian rather than actually being a real argument but there's no point in dragging this out any further since consensus seems to be that he should be cut, yeah

Edited by WaryHoglet on Feb 20th 2020 at 6:04:02 AM

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#202418: Feb 20th 2020 at 6:02:52 PM

[up][up][up] Relax. I'm just stating my opinion and said I wouldn't stand in the way unless something to invalidate this is found.

[up][up] Honestly, I think I'm more inclined to agree with Hoglet on this point. We should engage in healthy debate, and even if it does drag, better too much examination than too little.

[up] There's a difference between contrarianism and calling for greater scrutiny. I was trying to do the latter, though I admit that sometimes I have a bit of trouble articulating my thoughts. Sorry if it seemed like I was more the former.

Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Feb 20th 2020 at 6:08:17 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
#202419: Feb 20th 2020 at 6:11:46 PM

Wary that was not the point you made in that post and I think you know that but you seem pretty grounded in how you're seeing this so I'm going to move on. Also if you'd like to do a friendly correction "but whatever lol" is not a good end.

WaryHoglet Since: Feb, 2016
#202420: Feb 20th 2020 at 6:15:18 PM

[up] If I didn't sound particularly friendly it's because I don't really enjoy being mini-modded to have to phrase everything in an exact way that people prefer.

I don't think Lighty or anyone "controls" this thread or anything and I would have no reason to think that considering my proposed cut got through anyway as much as there seems to be a strong inclination for instantaneous yes's and no's and discussion beyond a few comments is frowned upon in favor of just going through EP's as fast as possible, but obviously I'm not going to wave a magic wand and change people's mentalities so I'm fine with just moving on since it seems like the vote is heavily in favor of cutting him.

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#202421: Feb 20th 2020 at 6:17:28 PM

On another note, I found a couple pics of Darkseid from Superman: The Animated Series. Do you think either or both of them might work?

Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Feb 20th 2020 at 6:22:37 AM

43110 (Striking Back) Relationship Status: Reincarnated romance
WaryHoglet Since: Feb, 2016
#202423: Feb 20th 2020 at 6:30:28 PM

On the topic of ASOIAF and the Quotes/Images section I noticed that Ramsay Bolton has two Complete Monster quotes and neither are the quote I think fits the best haha, so here's the quote I would propose for him instead:

Wylla: He won't ever be my lord! He made Lady Hornwood marry him, then shut her in a dungeon and made her eat her fingers!

Locke: The maid tells it true. Roose Bolton's cold and cunning, aye, but a man can deal with Roose. We've all known worse. But this bastard son of his ... they say he's mad and cruel, a monster.

Edited by WaryHoglet on Feb 20th 2020 at 6:30:52 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#202424: Feb 20th 2020 at 6:49:25 PM

Seems more like You Monster!.

I'll file the cut tomorrow. What was the other possible cut?

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#202425: Feb 20th 2020 at 6:51:29 PM

Any more thoughts on my pictures, BTW?


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