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Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

WaryHoglet Since: Feb, 2016
#202376: Feb 20th 2020 at 1:56:30 PM

[up] "Aerys also hoped his presence at the tourney would win back the love of his people. If that was his intention it backfired horrifically. Since the Defiance of Duskendale, the king had not taken care of his appearance. His fear of blades meant he would not permit his hair to be cut, or his nails to be groomed. His hair and beard were unwashed, matted and tangled, and his nails were yellow and grew nine inches in length. His fear and paranoia of poison had made him thin and gaunt. The lords and knights at the tourney were appalled at what their monarch had become. Nor was his behavior that of a sane man, going from mirth to melancholy at a snap of the fingers. His bouts of hysterical laughter, long silences, sudden rages and constant weeping made all present weary."

Saying he was 'somewhat delusional' is a bit of an understatement, he clearly was suffering from a severe mental illness caused by being the result of multiple generations of sibling incest. With that being said he was still lucid enough to make decisions and have conversations so I think saying it doesn't take responsibility away from his crimes is a valid argument, but his genuine insanity is a clear contrast from other Complete Monsters in the series like Ramsay who aside from their incredible sadism are pretty well adjusted and weren't push into being monsters because of anything outside their control.

Edited by WaryHoglet on Feb 20th 2020 at 2:07:59 AM

Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#202377: Feb 20th 2020 at 1:56:34 PM

I’m honestly not sure how I feel about the Mad King right now, so I’ll abstain for the time being.

WaryHoglet Since: Feb, 2016
#202378: Feb 20th 2020 at 1:57:38 PM

Also the insanity defense wasn't the main point for cutting Aerys, it was the love for his non-Rheagar kids and no evidence has been provided that he didn't or stopped caring about them

I realize this conversation has become very repetitive so I'll try to make this my last point about it haha

Edited by WaryHoglet on Feb 20th 2020 at 1:58:03 AM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#202379: Feb 20th 2020 at 1:58:30 PM

Honestly, if he wasn't indicated to have stopped caring for them, then by all means cut him.

SumDumNerd LOCKDOWN PROCEDURES ENGAGED from [REDACTED] Since: May, 2017 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#202381: Feb 20th 2020 at 2:03:11 PM

Let me make one thing perfectly clear. I'm not objecting to the Mad King being cut because I have any particular desire to see him stay as a CM. I just feel like we may be taking action too rashly in his case, and I want to make sure we're not rushing into judgment before considering other possibilities. If we examine all these factors and he still ends up being cut, oh well.

ETA: Actually, I think I might have found something. According to A Wiki of Ice and Fire:

"While Aerys was compassionate at first, comforting Rhaella in her grief, he turned suspicious in time. By 270 AC, he had decided that Rhaella had been unfaithful to him, and that none of the stillbirths, miscarriages and dead princes had been his, as the gods would not want a bastard to sit the Iron Throne."

(Sorry, I'm not sure how to quote properly in threads)

The citation says this comes from The World of Ice & Fire. Could somebody who has that book check to make sure?

Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Feb 20th 2020 at 2:13:41 AM

WaryHoglet Since: Feb, 2016
#202382: Feb 20th 2020 at 2:10:46 PM

also changing to [tdown] on Tom, I didn't realize the story was only 1,000 words before it was pointed out here but yeah that's way too short to possibly justify having a character with enough characterization to qualify

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#202383: Feb 20th 2020 at 2:15:19 PM

[up] I guess it could be theoretically possible, but reading the story for myself, I don't think it manages that feat.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#202384: Feb 20th 2020 at 2:22:04 PM

That's just a page or two more or less. I don't think any short stories villains we have are from stories that short.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#202385: Feb 20th 2020 at 2:28:01 PM

[up] Hence the emphasis on "theoretically". I legitimately can't see it being pulled off in reality.

But anyway, should we check The World of Ice & Fire to verify the information I found implying that Aerys did a 180 on his dead kids?

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#202386: Feb 20th 2020 at 2:28:02 PM

Okay, I get it. Could we move on from it?

[down] Both admittedly.

Edited by AustinDR on Feb 20th 2020 at 2:32:05 AM

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#202387: Feb 20th 2020 at 2:29:26 PM

[up] Move on from what, story length or the Mad King?

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#202388: Feb 20th 2020 at 2:30:03 PM

Okay let me just switch to abstain on aerys. I've become confused.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
WaryHoglet Since: Feb, 2016
#202389: Feb 20th 2020 at 2:30:51 PM

[up] [up] I can check the book when I get home in a few hours. It does sort of feel like you're grasping at straws for the last couple pages though tbh but i don't mind double checking

Edited by WaryHoglet on Feb 20th 2020 at 2:31:20 AM

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#202390: Feb 20th 2020 at 2:30:54 PM

[up][up] I don't blame you.

[up] Alright, thanks. That would be very helpful.

Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Feb 20th 2020 at 2:33:54 AM

captainmarkle Limited Patients from Behind you Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#202391: Feb 20th 2020 at 2:42:25 PM

Reluctant [tdown] to Two Toed Tom

I'm just gonna say cut Mad King and that's as much as I'm willing to say on the matter.

Trans rights are human rights. If you don't think that, please leave.
LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#202392: Feb 20th 2020 at 3:11:57 PM

I see so so many people worried about short story length to establish personality, yet countless times I've seen people up vote candidates from song lyrics with far fewer words. That seems like a bit of an oddity to me.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#202393: Feb 20th 2020 at 3:32:34 PM

[up] I think it's at least partly because you can "say more with less" when you're not using prose.

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#202394: Feb 20th 2020 at 3:44:37 PM

Please could a correction be made to the Arthur Watts entry for RWBY? Another troper caught it on the work's page, but it needs changing for the CM page: Tyrian's name in the entry is currently listed as 'Carrows'. It needs to be changed to 'Callows'.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#202395: Feb 20th 2020 at 3:45:13 PM

I suppose the thing with song lyrics I've never cared for are the many candidates we've vetted that were just a song going broad strokes over a character's crimes. Those specifically have always made me feel "what's the point" in bothering to make an entry on the character on the most absolute bare bones adaptation.

For example, we have 4 different songs about Elizabeth Bathory doing basically the exact same things. I mean I really don't understand the point in having many of these song entries.

Edited by LoreDeluxe on Feb 20th 2020 at 3:52:54 AM

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
Libraryseraph uu~ from Canada (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: Raising My Lily Rank With You
uu~
#202396: Feb 20th 2020 at 3:46:37 PM

Honestly, that's why I don't say much about most song candidates. (Also I own The World of Ice and Fire and that line does exist, but i can't get a page number rn bc i'm making supper)

HAPPY HALLOWEEN FOR MARIA
LoreDeluxe Since: May, 2013
#202397: Feb 20th 2020 at 3:52:51 PM

I'm just saying that, as a forum, it worthwhile to discuss what exactly we want out characters from music.

Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#202398: Feb 20th 2020 at 3:55:25 PM

Personality, for one.

LordYAM Since: Jan, 2015
#202399: Feb 20th 2020 at 4:01:53 PM

Aerys is a tough one, but one argument I saw elsewhere argued that Aerys had some cognizance of his actions and ENJOYED being cruel. So I'm inclined to think keep the fucker

Edited by LordYAM on Feb 20th 2020 at 4:02:02 AM

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#202400: Feb 20th 2020 at 4:03:57 PM

The insanity thing is less an issue(And I disagree on the "different type of insanity" thing do to the fact the tagarryan madness is an In the Blood thing) as much as the redeeming quality supplementary materials gave.

Things are really about to get Fun around here

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