TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Subpages cleanup: Complete Monster

Go To

During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

SkyCat32 (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#202351: Feb 20th 2020 at 11:03:42 AM

Come to think of it [tdown] Tom.

Still not bad for a quick read.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Feb 20th 2020 at 2:10:00 PM

Critica7 Self-Declared King of Everything from Smallville Since: Jul, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Self-Declared King of Everything
#202352: Feb 20th 2020 at 11:11:20 AM

If that's the case, I'll switch to [tdown] to Tom.

Check out my current fanfiction project.
CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#202354: Feb 20th 2020 at 11:32:00 AM

@Austin: If Tom shows up later in a much lengthier story, we can reevaluate him. But right now? I'm not seeing him counting.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
MasterN Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button from Florida- I mean Unova Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#202355: Feb 20th 2020 at 11:34:51 AM

See, this is why I was unsure about upvoting the Skinwalker. My mind went to the possibility of it being one of those bare-bones creepypasta stories written solely to demonstrate how evil or scary the villain is. (Granted, I stand corrected now, and could have and probably should have read it myself instead of asking Tyk.)

[tdown] Aerys and Tom.

Edited by MasterN on Feb 20th 2020 at 11:35:44 AM

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#202356: Feb 20th 2020 at 11:36:51 AM

[up][up] I wasn't saying that. I'm saying that he might come back later in my series. But I'm unconcerned as of now. I mean, I did not ask for Beast to cover the story, and I'm not surprised by the outcome of it. I might bring the character back later in the series, but I don't really see a reason to.

I actually watched a film based on the Sawney Bean legend called Lord of Darkness. Somewhat unsure on that that one.

Edited by AustinDR on Feb 20th 2020 at 11:38:10 AM

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#202357: Feb 20th 2020 at 11:38:30 AM

He does try to kill his grandkids, giving the order to "burn them all" while they're still in King's Landing. Was he specifically targeting them? No, but he wasn't upset at the thought of killing them.

To be frank, I feel like we're taking it too much for granted that qualities he may have had in the past still applied during his more evil days.

Before I forget, switching to [tdown] for Tommy Pickles

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#202358: Feb 20th 2020 at 11:40:58 AM

His grandkids are not his kids though. You can love the latter but hate the former.

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#202359: Feb 20th 2020 at 12:07:07 PM

[up] Not sure you see what I'm getting at. What I'm saying is that assuming redeeming qualities Aerys may have had in the past still applied later on seems like a bit of a leap in logic, especially considering some of his misdeeds seriously undermine the case for that.

WaryHoglet Since: Feb, 2016
#202360: Feb 20th 2020 at 12:09:24 PM

[up] Isn't assuming all his redeeming qualities just went away without much of any evidence from the series more of a leap in logic? Like no offense but you haven't presented any evidence that he did stop loving his kids, other than him being indifferent to his grandchilden dying which is not the same thing. Right now you seem to be just voting to keep him on an assumption.

Edited by WaryHoglet on Feb 20th 2020 at 12:12:24 PM

G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#202362: Feb 20th 2020 at 12:31:41 PM

I think this is about the "never bring them up again" thing.

Now, from what I can recall, that's primarily for when the character was a different person or at a different stage in there life, like dio loved his mother as a kid but never brings her up in his adult and vampire years.

Simmualey from what I can understand the argument is Aerys had that redeeming quality before he became the mad king and never brought it up after.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
Brainulator9 Short-Term Projects herald from US Since: Aug, 2018 Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
Short-Term Projects herald
#202363: Feb 20th 2020 at 12:31:50 PM

YMMV.The Incredibles and Monster.Disney: may I request that "Decades" be swapped out with "Years" to better reflect the work's timeline (15 years)?

Contains 20% less fat than the leading value brand!
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#202364: Feb 20th 2020 at 12:33:03 PM

How could he ever bring it up?

There is no camera on Aerys. He died sixteen years before ASOIAF begins. The times he appears are Jaime's flashbacks when he has no reason to randomly go "Burn them all, and btw I still love my dead kid."

This is not like Dio who screams out he forsakes his ties to humanity

Edited by Lightysnake on Feb 20th 2020 at 12:35:13 PM

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#202365: Feb 20th 2020 at 12:36:26 PM

Honestly, I'd say that the severe changes to his fundamental character mean assuming that possible old traits still apply is a bit of a reach. If there were a stronger case to be made against him qualifying, I'd accept it (though maybe a little begrudgingly), but as it is, there doesn't seem to be any solid evidence that the psychopathic maniac he became still had the possible redeeming qualities from his past self.

We shouldn't be so hasty to remove a character for a case of possible disqualifying factors that really isn't so clear-cut. At the very least, we should mull it over a little longer.

Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Feb 20th 2020 at 12:37:48 PM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#202366: Feb 20th 2020 at 12:39:38 PM

[up][up][up] If it's actually mentioned that it's fifteen years, I'd just replace it with "Fifteen years later" myself.

WaryHoglet Since: Feb, 2016
#202367: Feb 20th 2020 at 12:41:56 PM

[up][up] My impression of how CM has always worked/supposed to work is innocent until proven guilty...this is meant to be one of the most exclusive tropes on the site which is why we have this massive thread in the first place. Just saying "He probably stopped loving his kids" doesn't cut it for me personally. There needs to be solid evidence that he stopped caring about them and there is none that I can see.

In other words the burden of proof is on keeping someone as a Complete Monster, not disqualifying them.

Edited by WaryHoglet on Feb 20th 2020 at 12:55:46 PM

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#202368: Feb 20th 2020 at 12:43:21 PM

I'm not saying I agree with that train of thought. I was just explaining what I thought imperial was trying to say

[up] IMO, the "Needs proof they kept that redeeming quality after they turned evil" works fine unless they turned evil partially because of it, but I can see the alternative logic. But in Aerys case, we only ever see him in flashbacks so there's not as much context as other baddies.

Also Id say wether its a case of "needs confirmation" applies to either keeping or cutting them is more a case by case thing. William Afton never turns to the camera and goes "Oh BTW I don't really love my daughter" but that situation is too ambigous to be mitigating.

Edited by Kylotrope on Feb 20th 2020 at 10:56:33 AM

Things are really about to get Fun around here
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#202369: Feb 20th 2020 at 12:52:53 PM

Okay I'm actually going to lean cut now. I was going to stay our of this but the fact he's just a backstory villain and we don't really know much about what was happening with him in his mind and his redeeming qualities means it's a bit too much burden of proof.

Edited by miraculous on Feb 20th 2020 at 12:55:44 PM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
G-Editor The 47th President Since: Mar, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
The 47th President
#202370: Feb 20th 2020 at 12:55:16 PM

I’m just going to abstain on Aryes and leave it at that

My sandbox of EPs and other stuff
Tyk5919 Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Your friendly neighborhood stank goblin
#202371: Feb 20th 2020 at 1:11:46 PM

Y'all, this Aerys conversation has been going on for nearly five pages now. I feel like some people are just playing Devil's Advocate at this point.

I write stories and shiz. You can read them here.
SkyCat32 (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#202372: Feb 20th 2020 at 1:23:54 PM

With new evidence, I call for the Mad King's exoneration.

I agree, since there is no evidence he stopped loving his late descendants, we cannot verify his redeeming qualities were negated.

On second thought, still abstaining.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Feb 20th 2020 at 4:28:20 AM

ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#202373: Feb 20th 2020 at 1:50:26 PM

While I can kind of see where people are coming from with the "but he (might have) loved his kids once!", even if I don't necessarily agree with it, I have to admit I'm kind of confused about why people think his madness is a mitigating factor. Yes, he was a paranoid, somewhat delusional man who had some irrational fears, but is that really enough to affect his agency or otherwise serve as a mitigating factor?

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#202374: Feb 20th 2020 at 1:52:37 PM

Okay how crazy was he?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
ImperialMajestyXO Since: Nov, 2015
#202375: Feb 20th 2020 at 1:55:32 PM

[up] Well, he had an irrational fear of cutting his nails and ate very little because he was paranoid about being poisoned, but I don't think he was crazy to the point where he could legitimately qualify for an Insanity Defense in Real Life (though INAL, so feel free to take this with a grain of salt).


Total posts: 326,048
Top