During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
"I think I saw the Mad kings insanity discussed before, it was said(IIRC) That many other tagaeryians had the same insanity thing and didn't become the evil sadist he did."
I do want to say (no offense to you Kylo since you're just recapping a previous discussion) that I think this is sort of a silly argument. Insanity is not something that is alike in any two people - one person can be insane and the insanity drives him to kill people and another person's insanity can manifest in him wandering the desert for 15 years looking for luxury flutes or something. I get the argument that Aerys was ultimately still responsible for everything he did, but saying other people had "the same insanity thing he did" doesn't make any sense because his insanity was likely very different from another character's insanity because thats how insanity works
so to tldr my basic points against Aerys being a CM are 1) He had genuine love for his died-young children and 2) He was very arguably so insane that he falls under the "too mentally ill to be fully responsible for his actions" which I think are both backed up by the text
Edited by WaryHoglet on Feb 20th 2020 at 12:42:23 PM
Azzael
Torch and Reginald Shaw (if Shaw was shown, onscreen, doing the act he did to others offscreen, I'd be inclined to vote yea, but as it seemingly doesn't I can't I'm afraid)
As for the Life is Strange candidates, I remember initially voting yes for both of them that weren't Mark Jefferson; on reflection, however, I'd say
to Prescott and
to Elliott, as Elliot is certainly repulsive but Prescott has a much grander scale. I won't lose sleep on them either way
Could I remove Star Wars Resistance from the discussion dates. I don't watch it but it's been over a month since it ended with like no fanfair. I doubt anyone counts or they'd have been brought up already
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."I won't loose sleep on Sean or Eliot either way. Looking back and re-reading their EP, I mention that the story talks about the pattern between them and their criminal activities (with Eliot being established as a regular hitman for Sean), but they don't get in depth exploration aside from Sean having William killed, or Eliot helping kill Rachel.
Edited by Beast on Feb 20th 2020 at 7:29:58 AM
"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."Okay, just a reminder...it doesn't matter how 'menacing' a bad guy is, or how they react when someone points something out. If it's not part of a pattern, if the results aren't seen, if it's not part of someone's major character arc, it's offscreen. That should've been obvious for Shaw and I'm really still kind of worried that was so glossed over or mistaken initially.
Now, as for Aerys...I see Hoglet's argument on this front. I'm not entirely inclined to think of his insanity as mitigating because as nuts as he is, Aerys is still capable of understanding and rationalizing his actions. Burning King's Landing is done for pure spite, and he knows full well the danger it presents to everyone about him. The fact he's nuts enough to possibly think (this is only Jaime's guess, after all) he'll be reborn as a dragon and destroy Robert himself...I'm not quite sure that mitigates it.
The children is another matter. I think the argument there, and correct me if I'm wrong, WH...I'm not sure he sees his kids as people and not just status symbols before he goes over the edge. By the end, he only really cares about Viserys as a means of legacy and keeping the throne secure. Rhaegar, after all, is his firstborn and Aerys plainly hates him when he's old enough to actually voice opinions to the point of shunning Rhaegar's daughter and being a general pillock about it.
On the other hand, it doesn't necessarily override caring for his own, infant children, so I think the cut is a fair position to take. I think discussion'll help this.
I'm abstaining on Aerys.
Also: Devilman Monster Reformat
Edited by ACW on Feb 20th 2020 at 10:14:31 AM
I agree with Lighty that Aerys is worth discussing because he's very borderline and tbh I don't really get the point of everyone instantly abstaining on a character they don't know well...that basically defeats the purpose of having this thread at all if contentious cases are instantly mass abstained/just waited for a 'power user' to vote so everyone can just automatically agree with them, I'd like to actually discuss
Edited by WaryHoglet on Feb 20th 2020 at 8:07:41 AM
BTW, Brotherhood in Death? Asshole Victims, but no keeper. From the page:
- The initial victim in Brotherhood in Death is portrayed right off the bat as a smug, wholly self-centered politician who cares more about money than about keeping a promise made to his late grandfather and is trying to pressure his Nice Guy cousin into selling their grandparents' house against the grandfather's final wishes. The investigation eventually reveals even worse: all three of the murder victims, along with three other men, had formed a "Brotherhood" with a yearly tradition of abducting, drugging, and gang-raping young women. They'd been doing this once a year for forty-nine years, even taking video recordings, and one of the men kept a lock of each woman's hair as souvenirs. It's hard not to side with the killer once all this comes to light, and Eve herself mostly feels disgusted that only two of the six are still alive to face prosecution for their crimes (besides the murder victims, a fourth had committed suicide), while three of their victims will have to go to jail for killing them.
So, yeah, a nasty group, but it's a group of 6, so that's a no-go. Plus, they actually seem to be good friends.
Speaking of groups, what should we do about the Duncans. Also, there should probably be a Human Trafficking pothole somewhere.
@Lighty, is there any textual evidence that his love for his died-young children wasn't genuine? Because I'm seeing that argued a lot on this page but I don't see where that comes from the text...obviously he hated Rhaegar but I think its stated thats largely due to him being paranoid of Rhaegar overthrowing him and I don't see what personal motive Aerys would have for becoming really happy when his son is born and then being filled with despair when he dies, that very much seems to me as just actually loving his kid which is disqualifying for CM on its own.
The insanity thing is a grey area because I see the point that he was still lucid enough to be liable for his actions, but...dude was literally foaming at the mouth, lost like a hundred pounds because he thought all his food was poisoned and refused to eat anything, and has fingernails 3 or 4 feet long because he was too scared of cutting them. That's not just being a Ax-Crazy psycho like Joffrey or Ramsay, that's actually being insane/severe mental illness, and when you combine that with the love-for-son thing I think there's enough going against Aerys as a CM to be disqualified.
Edited by WaryHoglet on Feb 20th 2020 at 9:11:24 AM

Waiting for someone who knows about Song of Ice and Fire to clarify about Aerys
"It was the best of times, it was the BLURST of times?"