During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
I fail to see how there's such a leap between "sabotage an occupied train" and "death" that it needs to be ascribed to Fridge Horror.
I'm going with a no on Torch. Yeah, too many issues.
Kylo, that's not the best point. Sabotaging a train and the deaths that result in a n adult film are not fridge horror, it's a real and present danger and one that needs to be taken into account here.
Edited by Lightysnake on Feb 19th 2020 at 9:47:32 AM
Oh, no to Shaw. You know what? This "he killed his wife's lovers...and then her!" Is the very definition of offscreen villainy. Besides that, he's bog standard, just kills some people and tries to kill the heroes. No, even the EP tries to argue he makes it by sheer virtue of completely offscreen crimes
Torch. Really derailing a train....
Actually I've seen the tourist. How much of Shaw's murders are onscreen because I don't remember how much of it crossed out of offstage villainy because he just says he does it from what I remember.
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."I'll switch to an abstain on Shaw too. Sorry G.
@Lighty I thought maybe it was emphasized enough with his brutality beyond just words (such as when he kills his man). I should know better though.
![]()
What I meant was I thought his menace was enough to bring what he did into focus. Again, I know better.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Feb 19th 2020 at 10:25:33 AM
@Scraggle Right. Of course. I thought G was confident. I should have told him he should be absolutely sure first and emphasized that more. Sorry about that. My abstain (which I am now) is mainly because I don't want to say no, but I can't say yes.
@mir Too bad it wasn't brought into more focus. All too easy to put him up then.
@Lighty I was also a little excited admittedly to vote on a candidate from a movie I knew too. Should have taken the uncertainty from both G and I as a sign though.
I'm tempted to abstain on Torch too come to think of it, but I'm not sure right now. I need to think on it.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Feb 19th 2020 at 10:29:02 AM
To get back on track, I'm not sure this one keeps, but...from Hellboy, kind of the originator of all the woes of the series and worth a discussion: Azzael.
who is Azzael?
A powerful demon and the Prince of Sheol. Azzael is either a fallen angel or a born demon...now Satan is largely retired, and Azzael, like other demons is a vicious corrupter, tempter and torturer of souls, with many lives under his belt. Fathering three children, sons Gamon and Lusk and daughter Gamori, Azzael had a different plan in mind, one brewing for millennia...to seize control of the Oghdru Jahad and ravage earth for his own power.
Azzael, to that end, was also the lord of the witches of England and one particular one caught his eye: Sarah Hughes, descendant of King Arthur through Mordred, whose line were all daughters. On 1574 , Sarah wed Azzael on Walpurgisnacht and was impregnated by him....Sarah later repented of her deeds as a witch, had two mortal children and spent her life trying to atone...and then in the early 1600s? The debt came due. Her children tried to protect her and Azzael burned them alive, swaying Sarah back, impaled her on a hook and dragged her to hell. It wasn't her he wanted, but their son...his favorite child, Anung un Rama...Hellboy. Sarah was burnt away in hell, body and soul, to reveal Hellboy. Azzael cut off his hand and grafted the Right Hand of Doom onto him with intent of unleashing the Oghdru Jahad, ravaging the world and then controlling them...whereby Azzael would be the strongest being in creation.
This was the "break glass oh shit" moment for other demons and when they realized what he had done, they came down like the wrath of the cosmos on Azzael. Azzael, as a last 'fuck you' to them, sent Hellboy ahead in time for Rasputin's summoning to be the harbinger of the apocalypse, while he was taken and frozen in ice forevermore...left to rot while his lands fell into ruin...and his son becomes a hero.
Heinousness?
We're not lacking for apocalyptic baddies but Azzael sets the series in motion. He's the one who collects many souls, swaying many, many people into their own damnation, and what he does with Sarah and her son and daughter is just fucked. And his own goals are plain up apocalyptic for earth, turning his own son into a weapon for that.
Mitigating Qualities?
Zilch. He doesn't care a whit for his three demon kids, and while his brother Astaroth respects him (to the point oif decapitating one of Azzael's other sons when he badmouths his dad), there's o hint Azzael returns the favor. Azzael is just shown to be cruel and greedy and while he feigns care for Sarah, it's a ruse to draw her body and eliminate her to have his favorite son, Aung un Rama, a child of two bloodlines, heir to the thrones of hell and Britain, to pull off his scheme of taking everything after an apocalypse with the Dragon.
Conclusion?
Now, it's difficult as Azzael has few appearance. I lean yes, but abstain myself, if we think his personal, horrific touches of cruelty put him over the edge

Based on the EP,
to Torch.