During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Well, speaking as someone who got my first candidate up through an EP and somehow managed to get it fantastically right the first time... I do see that maybe we could dial back the thumps a bit. The poster who tried to propose Movie!Eggman did at least have the courtesy to mark the spoilery parts.
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.I hope everyone's been well and I haven't done a full CM check since Cutting Class, I think. I've tried to do the same with The Overlook but its took vague. But here I am doing one for a Chris Cooper character's from Money Train, Torch.
What's the work?
Following up on their success with White Men Can't Jump, Woody and Snipes are at it again. Money Train is an action comedy from 1995 about John (Snipes) and Charlie Robinson (Woody), a pair of foster brothers working with in New York City's transit department as cops. John's life is as good as it gets, and Charlie's life is the pits. After losing his job, getting dumped by his brother, and getting the crap kicked out of him by a loan shark for the umpteenth time, Charlie implements his plan to steal the "money train," a train carrying the New York Subway's weekly revenue. While the A plot is about the money train robbery, a subplot focuses on Torch.
Who is Torch?
Torch is a serial killer whom targets MTA workers, specifically token booth attendants. First, he sprays gasoline into the booth using the counter hole then drops a match into the booth, watching the booth set fire and leaving the area just as quickly.
Heinousness?
He tries to burn alive two token booth attendants. The first one is about to get out thanks in part of John, and he does the same thing to Jennifer Lopez's Grace, who goes undercover as one. During a sting operation to apprehend Torch and realizing the trap, Torch distracts police by pushing a man in front of a moving train, killing him. Torch then sprays gasoline on Grace, but before he can light it, Charlie alerts the other officers, who open fire. John pursues the killer into another station, where they fight onto the tracks. Torch, with John's own gun, is about to shoot him when he is burned by his gasoline and then, killed by a moving train. His death also kick starts the last act of the movie, since Charlie and John are both fired and go about and rob the money train.
Mitigating Qualities?
Despite appearing twice in the movie and being played by a creepy Chris Cooper, who manages to make his character all the more menacing without the need of many lines, Torch seems fully content on what he is doing. He does not having a regard for human life.
Conclusion?
For sure.
to Torch
Alright so after mulling about this guy for some time and going over him with futuremoviewritier, I decided to EP this guy from movie that I just finished watching. The movie in question is called The Tourist.
What’s The Work?
The Tourist is a 2010 romantic thriller film starring Johny Depp and Angelina Jolie. The basic premise is that Angelina’s character, Elise receives a letter from her lover telling her to take a specific train and introduce herself to a random man of same height and build. She and her lover, Alexander Pearce, are on the run from his man Reginald Shaw.
Who Is He? What Has He Done?
Reginald Shaw is a notorious British crime lord who killed every single man that his wife slept with behind Shaw’s back. Shaw would eventually murder his own wife himself when he finds out how many men she actually slept with.
When Alexander and Elise stole 2.3 billon from him he has his men chase after them when one of his fail to capture someone who they thought was Alexander Shaw strangles him to death right in front of his other men his tailor when threatens to do the same should they fail to catch them again.
When Shaw captures Elise, he threatens to kill her unless he gives her the location of the safe containing all his stolen money, a threat he makes clear on when he’s about to kill Elise only for her to suddenly recognize the safe’ location.
When Frank arrives and pretends to be Alexander Pearce, Shaw forces Frank to open the safe, by threatening to kill Elise right in front of Frank starting by unsheathing his knife and attempting to carve Elise’s face in front of Frank.
Luckily Interpol kill Shaw and his men right before he does that where Frank reveals to Elise that he is indeed Alexander Pearce and the two leave Venice with Shaw’s stolen money.
Freudian Excuse? Redeeming Qualities?
Now the only thing about Shaws past is that he murder all of his wife’s lovers before killing her himself and that Alexander stolen 2.3 billion dollars from him. That’s its and it’s doesn’t even make him remotely sympathetic and he subvert his redeeming quality by killing his wife
Heinousness
As the Big Bad, Reginald Shaw sets the heinous standard for this film. Not only that his crimes of killing his own men, threatening to mutilate and kill the protagonist’s Love Interest in front of him is just enough to push Shaw over the baseline heinous standard.
Elise also said that Shaw murdered all of the men his wife slept with and murdered the wife himself when he learns of the amount of men she slept with and Shaw confirms that he did indeed to that when Frank calls him out on it.
Final Verdict?
I’ll leave that for you guys.
Edited by G-Editor on Feb 19th 2020 at 5:11:17 AM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuff[tup] Abstain on Torch and Shaw
You know, maybe we have been a little harsh on the dates thing, plus, I've been working on being less intimidating to newcomers.
I have even added an effortpost layout to my troper page (even though it's not strictly necessary).
Edited by SkyCat32 on Feb 20th 2020 at 7:07:16 AM
A little concerned about not seeing ALL the killings onscreen, but
to Shaw though. Underrated movie like I said on MB. Can't believe it'll be 10 this year.
Even the best of us slip up now and then, but we do better though. Also, I guess I'm futuremoviewrit-i-er now. Haha.
EDIT: I was gonna suggest maybe voting on whether or not certain works were worth keeping the discussion dates on if no one cared to wait, but that call is not up to me if that's something we decide to do.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Feb 19th 2020 at 8:40:50 AM
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
Echoing your concern about Torch, but
to Shaw.
Speaking of characters I have been mulling over...
When I EP-Ed the Cheshire Cat from Alice Mare, I mentioned that the White Rabbit was also a potential candidate, but I had dismissed him due to his indirectness compared to the more direct Cheshire. Thing is, after I managed to get the first Ogami-san from Forest of Drizzling Rain up despite him only appearing scarcely, I wonder if the White Rabbit is worth a try.
However, I would like someone else to go through the work, both the game and the novel, and give me a second opinion on the White Rabbit. Does anyone wanna volunteer to play Alice Mare and read the novel? The game and novel are relatively short- it should not take more than a day.
whoops.
Edited by MasterN on Feb 19th 2020 at 8:23:13 AM
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.Abstaining on Torch, Kill It with Fire is certainly a cruel MO but the Designated Villain apparently tries to derail an entire train.
I'd like to know if Shaw's killings are Offscreen Villainy before voting.
Oh yeah, and I'm reserving the full release of World of Horror.
Edited by TheMadCr0w on Feb 20th 2020 at 3:36:07 PM
Yeah, Campbell, Robert Blake's character, does tries to kill the heroes and citizens during in his Villainous Breakdown. He does this by trying to derail both the money train and another normal train. That is his MEH in the movie, but he comes across as a Smug Snake throughout the movie. The Torch, however, gleefully runs on For the Evulz.
As someone who just joined this thread a couple weeks ago I didn't find it especially unfriendly or hard to join in but I do agree new people could have their opinions taken more seriously because sometimes it does feel like new people's suggestions get much more skepticsm than established posters regardless of the actual content of the post. I don't think its a huge issue though.
I will also say that I'm interested in the Sonic movie discussion once two weeks happens because I really can't imagine a Jim Carrey villain who's almost entirely Played for Laughs as a CM candidate lol
I'm going to have to
Torch. This is a movie where the "heroes" assault random police officers, hold a train full of innocent civilians hostage so they can steal the city's taxpayer money being transported on the train just so they can pay off their gambling debts, and almost kill all these innocent civilians by sabotaging the train's brake, to, again, simply steal money to pay off their gambling debts. Torch's murders are largely Offscreen Villainy and nothing he does on screen is significantly worse than what the protagonists do.
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Careful Wary. You need to be more vague than that when a film discussion has not yet arrived.
Also, I think Shaw's sinister demeanor and declarations based on what I recall are enough to bring his actions more into focus. We've put candidates up for less before.
Edited by futuremoviewriter on Feb 19th 2020 at 9:17:52 AM
Don't minimod about something so trivial, Future.
No to Torch. I see a few nasty murders and that's it. I think it's questionable he passed the baseline; the relative standard certainly not once we get to mass murder attempts.
@Master N: Instead of begging someone to play the game, why don't you just save everyone time and put up an effortpost yourself to let everyone vote that way? That's how we solve every single "does this character count?" question.
Edited by Scraggle on Feb 19th 2020 at 10:34:01 AM
to Torch and Shaw.
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Gonna disagree. The protagonists are certainly reprehensible, but they never deliberately try to kill anybody AFAIK. And as for the "bad guy", he has more resources at his disposal than Torch.
Edited by ImperialMajestyXO on Feb 19th 2020 at 9:30:24 AM
That would be true if Torch's murders were onscreen, but its almost entirely Offscreen Villainy which can't qualify for this trope
According to the EP, he tries to commit murder onscreen at least five times, and one of these attempts is successful. Can his crimes really be said to be Offstage Villainy?
Fair point that I didn't consider, but this is still a film where not only the protagonists commit assault, armed robbery, and only narrowly avoid being liable for mass murder, the main villain tries to derail an entire train full of hundreds of innocent pedestrians. When you compare the major villain's attempted body count of hundreds to this guy's attempted on screen body count of, like, 5, two being standard "villain tries to kill heroes fighting him" thats just generic villainy, I still don't see how he's anywhere near the heinous standard.
Edited by WaryHoglet on Feb 19th 2020 at 9:44:03 AM
Torch burns a dude alive in a booth and throws another dude in front of a train. That's nasty, I'll agree. Everything beyond that is run of the mill "trying to kill the heroes" behavior.
Even if Torch licks over the baseline, the supposed protagonists never directly attempting to murder anyone doesn't matter when you think about the ramifications sabotaging a train's brake could have—mass murder by negligence, perhaps—that it distorts the morality of the movie to the point I'm not keen to see Torch slide.
Abstaining on Torch though...with the train brake thing, sense its a "when you think about" situation wouldn't that count as Fridge Horror?
Edited by Kylotrope on Feb 19th 2020 at 7:42:57 AM
Things are really about to get Fun around here

@Lighty, kinda feel the same way. I remember that I first entered here 2 years ago and it took me a while to get in since I do feel it's sometimes difficult to gauge what seems acceptable or not and it is quiet intimidating entering something new. If someone is new and breaks the rule, I do think there should be leniency since it's a little too much to expect everyone to understand the rules immediately. At the very least give them a month or two to get the bearing of things.
Allow me, take my hand and never let go, promise? - Giselle