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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

MGD107 Since: Feb, 2015
#201826: Feb 16th 2020 at 5:57:30 AM

[tup] to Brother Moriarty. Now that's an original take.

No problems with de Solis going up as long as its specified its based on the folklore version not the real man (I mean a lot of figures in folklore are generally agreed to have been based on a real figure once) or Swaney Bean as even if he did exist, the stories are clearly fictional.

I agree though De Rais and Bathory were real people, who were tried and the records still exist. They easily could have been framed (though I'm less sure about Bathory's case, her trial involved a lot of witnesses in a time when that was considered a formality at best and a waste of time at worst).

SkyCat32 (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
k410ren Since: Jan, 2016
#201828: Feb 16th 2020 at 6:33:18 AM

If anyone has seen Person of Interest, PM me. I seem to have found a new candidate.

"I'll show you the Dark Side." CM actors and kills
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
Bullman Enid Sinclair Since: Jun, 2018 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
captainmarkle Limited Patients from Behind you Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#201831: Feb 16th 2020 at 7:35:46 AM

[tup] Moriarty - that's three this month I think?

OK, draft writeup for the Cunning Man below. Adding to drafts too.

  • I Shall Wear Midnight: The Cunning Man was a witch-finder in life, but persisted as a spirit of pure hatred after his original body disappeared, and resurfaces every few decades to target new witches after each defeat, killing them if they lose. Cunning Man targets the Chalk with his Hate Plague, turning them against Tiffany Aching and framing her for the death of the previous Baron, while also making the Baron's son, Roland, turn against her and engineering a situation so a drunken cook falls to her death and Tiffany is blamed. Upon discovering Roland's fiancée Letitia is also a witch, Cunning Man attempts to murder them both multiple times, then possesses a criminal and has it kill its canary for no reason, before making a final attempt on Tiffany, Letitia, Roland and Preston's lives. Seeking to end witchcraft once and for all and uncaring of whose lives he ruins in the process, the Cunning Man is fuelled by sheer malice unmatched by any other foe Tiffany faces.

EP here for reference if anyone's got anything they think I missed.

Edit: [down] changed Burn the Witch! link to The Witch Hunter.

Edit: [down][down][down][down][down] for Discworld? I suppose that'd work? I'm not sure they're considered "not main" books, they are listed in the Discworld reading order the same way albeit noted for young adults.

Edit: changed mind to [tup] for Gustav.

Edited by captainmarkle on Feb 16th 2020 at 5:39:25 PM

Trans rights are human rights. If you don't think that, please leave.
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#201832: Feb 16th 2020 at 7:39:57 AM

The Witch Hunter is it's own trope btw.

Edited by miraculous on Feb 16th 2020 at 7:40:14 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
SkyCat32 (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#201833: Feb 16th 2020 at 7:43:03 AM

I realize I could have used that Pothole for Kramer in Night Huntress, but I thought Hanging Judge fit better.

Also you may want to visit the TRS for Man in White to see what it is being renamed to, in case there are any such potholes in monster entries.

Edited by SkyCat32 on Feb 16th 2020 at 10:45:06 AM

CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#201836: Feb 16th 2020 at 8:15:52 AM

Cunning Man at the end of the tree, since it's a YA novel and not a main one?

EDIT: Eh, it doesn't matter. I think Midnight came out after the other Discworld keepers anyway.

Also, since (including the Drafts) there are only 21 entries this week, and tomorrow's a holiday in the US, I'll do the batch then, if nobody minds.

Edited by ACW on Feb 16th 2020 at 11:47:19 AM

Bugfragged Since: Nov, 2012
#201837: Feb 16th 2020 at 9:24:31 AM

[tup]To Brother Moriarty

Gustav's current tally is 7 [tup], 4 [tdown], and 2 abstain. He got more upvotes than I expected, but he doesn't meet the supermajority requirement.

8 up, 4 down, 2 abstain as of Lightysnake's vote

9 up, 4 down, 2 abstain as of Michealthehero21's vote

9 up, 4 down, 3 abstain as of ACW's vote

[down][down] Here's the link. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=6vic3f9h1cy5qivsenw8llok&page=8067#comment-201664

Edited by Bugfragged on Feb 16th 2020 at 9:54:18 AM

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
SkyCat32 (Five Year Plan) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#201839: Feb 16th 2020 at 9:27:58 AM

I don't remember how I voted, assuming I did. Let me see a link to the effortpost again?

Michealthehero21 Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#201840: Feb 16th 2020 at 9:39:56 AM

[tup] Moriarty and Gustav.

Edited by Michealthehero21 on Feb 16th 2020 at 9:40:06 AM

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#201841: Feb 16th 2020 at 9:46:05 AM

I'll abstain on Gustav.

BTW, for In Death? I'm on the waiting list for the newest novel at my library, so that may take awhile. There's one candidate Mir's gonna look into (from Leverage) as I can't decide if he has mitigating qualities.

Also, the duo from Devoted is a frustrating almost-CM. Torture-murder of 30 or so victims, PLUS making one victim rape the other. One of the highest body counts (I think the only ones with more actual victims are the Loyalty duo who apparently also care about each other; current keeper Callaway; MAYBE current keeper The Groom; and the Apprentice killer is close [she apparently cares for her father, who influenced her; a case COULD be made for her, especially as she planned to kill MANY more, but it'd be tricky]), PLUS a heinous MO. Problem is? The love each other. They're psychotic, brutal, and LITERALLY get off on killing, but they DO love each other.

Edited by ACW on Feb 16th 2020 at 12:56:08 PM

falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
#201842: Feb 16th 2020 at 10:04:04 AM

Yes to Moriarty. Upon further consideration, I'll also change to a yes for Gustav.

Edited by falcontalons on Feb 16th 2020 at 10:11:55 AM

therealjackieboy from Austin, TX Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#201843: Feb 16th 2020 at 10:24:02 AM

[tup] Bro Moriarity

[up][up] Talk about a near-hit.

It's Spooky Month!
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#201844: Feb 16th 2020 at 10:30:59 AM

I can send you guys a link to Willow's book. The apprentice of death btw if you want.

Maybe you guys have a second opinion. If anyone is interested. Pm me.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Snailfish Silver Shamrock's Halloween three from Santa Mira, California Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: Love is for the living, Sal
Silver Shamrock's Halloween three
#201845: Feb 16th 2020 at 10:55:02 AM

[tup]Moriarty. I don't even remember if Moriarty was that bad in the original stories.

Okay,my last The Midnight Library post didn't go through, but I remember another story with a villain who is far worse. This is the obscure, yet incredibly disturbing Body Horror tale, An Apple A Day.

Old Bill Cole

Our unlucky hero this time is Tim Barnett, a boy staying with his Grandma during Summer vacation. It's a great place. His Grandma is kind and makes the best apple pie, her dog is loyal and friendly, and the farm has lots of surprises, like the big spider that lives in the barn. The downside, though, is Tim's neighbour, Bill Cole. Cole owns the biggest, sweetest apple orchard in town, but he's anything but sweet. Cole is a cruel, hard-hearted Jerkass who yells at and threatens anyone who goes near his precious orchard. Even creepier, Tim's Grandpa disappeared when he was little and he's wondered if Bill had anything to do with it. As the days go bye, Tim can't get the orchard out of his head. Then one day, he makes the mistake of getting too close, and Bill, polite fellow he is, yells bloody murder for him to keep away.

Later, he turns up at Grandma Barnett's home and angrily reprimands her for not keeping Tim in check. Furious to see this bully push around his grandma, Tim yells back for him to stop picking on her, and the old bastard proceeds to taunt the boy, even claiming his Grandpa learned not to mess around with his orchard.

As the old woman cries with her dog for comfort, Tim decides enough is enough. Bill Cole needs to pay for being such a bully, and Tim is the one whose gonna show him. The next day, Tim sneaks into Bill's orchard and carefully picks some apples from trees. Then he arranges them into one word on Cole's stoop: BULLY.

The boy laughs to himself from his hiding place when the angry farmer finds the message, and as a little token of his victory, eats one of the apples, seeds and all. Later, he's still laughing to himself in bed, but stops when he starts to feel a strange sensation in his throat, as if something is growing there. And it only gets worse from there.

Stranger and stranger things start to happen to him, finding a small leaf in his ear, spitting up apple seeds, his cheeks developing a waxy texure like apple skin,and even his belly button opening wide and dislodging a whole apple. Even the dog and spider react strangely to him, as if they sense he's becoming something inhuman and horrible .

Desperate for answers, Tim bikes over to Old Bill Cole's orchard, where the horror really starts to unfold. As he walks through the trees, Tim notices a tree with a face. And another. And all of them,some even young boys and girls. (Don't ask why he didn't notice this before) All in expressions of frozen horror, like the carvings of a mad sculptor. His mind reeling, Tim stumbles against a gnarled old dead tree with his Grandfather's Face!

As he tries to scream, the boy feels his jaw lock in place. Then roots start shooting out of his feet, bark starts forming where flesh once was, and branches shoot from his limbs. Then he sees Old Bill Cole step out to greet him. The last thing Tim sees before his transformation to a new tree is complete is the evil old man smiling at the latest addition to his orchard.

Heinousness

You'd think that, with Bill yelling at people to keep away from his orchard, that he's trying to save them from this horrifying fate. He's not. If anything, he goads people into coming to his orchard, and expresses nothing but sadistic joy when they end up as his trees. He openly gloats about the fate of one man and smiles when his grandson comes to the same end. And for god knows how long, his orchard has claimed countless lives and he doesn't shed a single tear or make any effort to keep people out. It's been a while since i've read these(they're very hard to track down), but I can't remember any other antagonist who collected so many lives like this guy.

Verdict

A vile bully on the outside, twisted collector of lives on the inside, Bill Cole is one of the most despicable kid's villains you've never heard of. [tup]

All witches, all skeletons, all jack O Lanterns, gather round your TV set, put on your masks, and watch...watch the magic pumpkin, Watch...
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#201846: Feb 16th 2020 at 10:58:31 AM

Jackie: Quite. As for Leverage, while there are under 20 victims, the MO is quite nasty: Forcing fathers to become suicide bombers (2 separate bombings) otherwise the wife and child get killed.

falcontalons from Earth-2 Since: Apr, 2019
Beast from Ontario, Canada Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
#201848: Feb 16th 2020 at 11:11:35 AM

Yes to Bill and Moriarty.

Regarding Folklore examples who may or may not be real, should it be noted that when I brought up the Abhartach of Celtic Mytholgy, I mentioned that his grave site is supposedly a real spot, and there has been paranormal activity reported there in real life ?

Edited by Beast on Feb 16th 2020 at 1:14:49 PM

"It's like...a cliff, and if I do it, I'm just gonna...fall." "I think we're already falling."
MasterJoseph Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object from Not telling. Since: Mar, 2018 Relationship Status: All I Want for Christmas is a Girlfriend
Frolaytia X Qwenthur of Heavy Object
#201849: Feb 16th 2020 at 11:17:20 AM

[tup]Mori, Gust, and Billy.

IPP Wick Check created.
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009

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