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During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.

Specific issues include:

  • Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
  • A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
  • Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
  • Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
  • Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.

It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.

Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:

     Previous Post 
Complete Monster Cleanup Thread

Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.

IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.

When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "[tup] to everyone I missed").

No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.

We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.

What is the Work

Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.

Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?

This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.

Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?

Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.

Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?

Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard

Final Verdict?

Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.

Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#201802: Feb 15th 2020 at 10:19:15 PM

[tup]ares, cunning, o'commor

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#201803: Feb 15th 2020 at 10:19:34 PM

Yeah, if there's a specific play from tgat era about Rais or Bathory, that would be great to EP.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#201804: Feb 15th 2020 at 10:19:56 PM

How would we feel about Sawney or de Solis on reflection then?

futuremoviewriter Since: Jun, 2014
#201805: Feb 15th 2020 at 10:20:36 PM

Based on the EP, [tup] to Conomor.

Saw Fantasy Island. I haven't really seen the show and I didn’t hate this movie, but I imagine though that fans are gonna think this movie is dogshit. PM me to discuss.

Edited by futuremoviewriter on Feb 15th 2020 at 10:24:26 AM

PureGrainAlkaSeltzer The Lord Of Walruses from 1200 Pennsylvania Ave Since: Apr, 2019 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
The Lord Of Walruses
#201806: Feb 15th 2020 at 10:23:10 PM

[tup] to Conomor and the cunning man. Late [tup] To Harry Warden, too.

I have no idea what I am doing
AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#201807: Feb 15th 2020 at 10:23:28 PM

I'm honestly fine with Sawney Bean.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#201808: Feb 15th 2020 at 10:25:32 PM

Didn't we downvote sawney already.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
nrjxll Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Not war
#201809: Feb 15th 2020 at 10:26:01 PM

I thought it was just said that Sawney Bean probably didn't even exist in real life.

AustinDR Lizzid people! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Lizzid people!
#201810: Feb 15th 2020 at 10:29:03 PM

I don't remember Sawney Bean getting brought up. Unless it was the whole dispute about his multiple wives and children. Though IIRC, it falls more under him doing so as means of committing his murders and other actions.

[down] You know I was hardly on the forum much around that time?

Edited by AustinDR on Feb 15th 2020 at 10:34:28 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#201811: Feb 15th 2020 at 10:29:21 PM

Oh God yes.

I mean really the head of a 45 man cannibal clan who killed a 1000 people. And that doesn't have any record barring a mention in a prison newspaper.....

[up]Ahem

Edited by miraculous on Feb 15th 2020 at 10:33:30 AM

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#201812: Feb 15th 2020 at 10:31:00 PM

Yeah, the difficulty?

Conomor and William de Solis were real people. However, legends and folklore spring up about them, highly fictionalized accounts since there's no historical evidence for Trephine and Conomor being The Bluebeard, or William de Solis being a serial killing monster with Robin Redcap as his evil sidekick.

Sawney is recorded in history by contrast...however, it's clearly nonsense. The story consists of a serial killing cannibal family slaughtering people for 30 some-odd years or so, and the king himself (thought to be James VI of Scotland) leading a gigantic manhunt. There is zero by way of contemporary evidence for this and most historians see similarities with other legends and believe it to be a story, even if it's recorded briefly in historical documents.

Contrast Gilles de Rais who was a real guy actually executed for the crimes....even if they may have been trumped up

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#201813: Feb 15th 2020 at 10:34:06 PM

I personally disagree on the Folklore point, but can see why others would think it.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#201814: Feb 15th 2020 at 10:38:12 PM

For solis could his redcap, Redcap Sly count too ?

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
captainmarkle Limited Patients from Behind you Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
#201815: Feb 15th 2020 at 11:16:35 PM

Counting 14 [tup] to Cunning Man and no abstains or [tdown]. Will have a draft summary ready by the end of the day (British isles time). I think that makes him the sixth CM in Discworld now.

[tup] Conomor.

Trans rights are human rights. If you don't think that, please leave.
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#201816: Feb 15th 2020 at 11:19:47 PM

Hey one more and you can make a page .

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
DemonDuckofDoom from Some Pond in Hell Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#201817: Feb 15th 2020 at 11:45:44 PM

I say go for it on de Soulis and Bean.

Kylotrope Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it) from Honolulu Hawaii Since: Apr, 2018
Barb(Its a thread joke you wouldn't get it)
#201818: Feb 16th 2020 at 1:34:13 AM

"question: can a villain Made of Evil still count as a CM, or is that out of the question?"

They can, but under very specific circumstances.

Things are really about to get Fun around here
miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#201819: Feb 16th 2020 at 1:44:24 AM

Only if others of their kind show positive features or their the legitimately worst of their kind.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
Klavice (Elder Troper)
#201820: Feb 16th 2020 at 2:12:32 AM

I saw Sonic the Hedgehog 2020 film today. Whoever's heading up that discussion can PM me for potential examples.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#201821: Feb 16th 2020 at 3:04:39 AM

I'll toss in a yes to Cunning Man. Sure to the Celtic dude too.

  • The House in Fata Morgana: Lord Jean-François Barnier is responsible for Morgana becoming the Big Bad. Barnier purchased her at 11 years old, first meeting her with a harem of underaged girls. For her holy saint's blood, Barnier restrains and cuts her for him and other members of the nobility to drink and, while she is restrained, tricks her into eating human flesh. Torturing and killing his own slaves at his leisure, Barnier routinely mocks Morgana to further break her, and when her health begins to deteriorate, simply tries to kill her. He also kills Ceren, the closest thing to a loved one he has, because she disobeyed his order simply for a chance to kill his attacker.

  • Bann Vaughan Kendells, the son of Arl Urien Kendells of Denerim, is a Serial Rapist and murderer of elven women who justifies his crimes by saying that elves aren't real people. When he appears in the City Elf Origin, Vaughan abducts the entire female half of a wedding party, including the protagonist if female, to be raped by him and his men. By the time the protagonist fights back, one woman has already been killed, and by the time the protagonist reaches Vaughan, their cousin, Shianni, has been raped by Vaughan and his friends. Unwilling to release his hostages, Vaughan instead tries to bribe the protagonist into letting him keep the women for the night and threaten to have his father burn the Denerim alienage to the ground. Such cruelty from Vaughan isn't an isolated incident, as the DLC prequel Leliana's Song features an overheard conversation where Vaughan is preparing to rape/torture one of his maids over a floor stain, and Valendrian tells of an elven dockworker's daughter who was kidnapped by Vaughan and found dead floating the water a few days later.

Edited by ACW on Feb 16th 2020 at 6:05:51 AM

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#201822: Feb 16th 2020 at 4:04:15 AM

[up]Should be found dead floating in the water

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."
CloisterTheStupid from Oop North Since: Jan, 2019 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
#201823: Feb 16th 2020 at 4:23:19 AM

[tup] to Ares, the Cunning Man and Conomor.

ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#201824: Feb 16th 2020 at 4:27:30 AM

[up][up] Whoops, good catch. I fixed that in the YMMV and in my batch.

miraculous Goku Black (Apprentice)
Goku Black
#201825: Feb 16th 2020 at 5:43:13 AM

Next Sherlock Holmes one. On a role.

Hmm here's an interesting one.

Gaslight Arcanum: Uncanny Tales of Sherlock Holmes is the third in the Gaslight series. It's main focus being magic Sherlock Holmes stories.

From the short story The Deadly Sin of Sherlock Holmes by Tom English

Who is Brother Moriarty

Brother Moriarty is a version of well Moriarty. This time Brother Moriarty is a monk who lived two hundred years before the time of Sherlock holmes. Communing with the devil for evil power, he was eventually cast out and imprisoned and made to write a new version of the bible as a punished r. Their in his cell, he made a deal with satan and using his now cursed blood. Uses it to write various horrifc murders. Now whoever sees these murders will now be forced to commit them. The words to these murders then fade away after het murder is done.His great fuck you to the world, unleashing centuries worth of bloodshed and carnage.

Anyway the order has tried to keep the book our of others hands but due to an evil enchantment on it by Moriarty. They keep losing it and lots of murder starts as result. They lost it during the Whitechapel Jack the ripper murders leading to them and its now missing again. Holmes a few years later is investigating the murder of a young woman whose body has been mutilated by her husband whose now lost his mind due to the book now controlling him.

Holmes and Watson investigate and try to get the book with a monk of the order performing a heroic sacrifice to have the book destroyed in a fire. It can only be completely destroyed with the death of someone selflessly giving their life.

Freudian Excuse ?

Meh. Moriarty appears briefly in the prologue but he shows a personality and is just an evil devil worshipper.

Heinous standard ?

Ah now this will be the interesting part. Now Moriarty doesn't do much onscreen but hethe created the book to do it. He specially enchanted it for brutal mutatilations having written down the worst murder methods he knew off with hundreds of pages and unleashed it onto the world with full inherent for it be a murder spree which it did cause that's lasted centuries. Considering this was his intent and what he planned. I think it's fine to put this spree on his feet even if he's not around for a lot of it.

Conclusion?

Up to you.

"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."

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