During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
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- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
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to everyone I missed").
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We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
Ares
OK, here goes nothing on my next EP, for the Cunning Man from I Shall Wear Midnight, the penultimate Tiffany Aching book from the Discworld series. Brace yourself, this is another long one.
Who is the Cunning Man?
The Cunning Man (note: I might just refer to him as "CM" at points for brevity's sake) was originally a human, and a witch-finder for the Omnian religion (this is roughly 900 years before the events of Small Gods, before Brutha's reforms). He indulged in a hefty degree of Burn the Witch!; he was The Dreaded to such a degree that his workers would sooner burn an innocent woman alive than come back to him and admit failure to find a witch. This went on for quite some time, until he found himself "falling in love" (read Sex Is Evil, and I Am Horny a la Frollo from The Hunchback Of Notre Dame) with an actual witch that was going to be burned at the stake, eventually deciding at the last minute to save her. However, as he uncertainly walked up towards her, planning to free her, she saw the evil he'd done and his true nature, then grabbed him so that he was horribly burned along with her. This didn't quite kill him, as he persisted as a Bad Boss witch-hunter with now-renewed zeal and found increasingly frivolous things to blame witches for (resulting in even more deaths), also writing a book called The Bonfire of the Witches about how to best be an evil witch-burning bastard, until eventually he bit off more than he could chew and found someone not quite stupid or fearful enough to let him continue.
Sadly, the Cunning Man did not stop there, persisting despite having no body as some sort of ghost/living idea, serving to possess those stupid enough to let him. He is doing this to turn people against innocent witches and resurface several years after each defeat. Prior to the book starting, he made at least one attempt on Granny Weatherwax, then one on Eskarina Smith. Unfortunately, the events of Wintersmith were enough to wake him up and focus on Tiffany...
What does he do?
Tiffany starts the book in a climate of growing suspicion against witches in her homeland of the Chalk, only worsened when the ruling Baron dies and a stupid nurse blames her for it. She gathers her things to make the journey to Ankh-Morpork to tell the his son Roland the sad news, at which point she discovers that the local children (with the exception of her loyal younger brother) have been deceived into thinking Tiffany is a stereotypically evil witch who curses people, and the local people have turned against Tiffany's family as if they're diseased. Ignoring this for now, she leaves and helps a coachman with an injury she sees on the way, at which point CM appears and shouts at her "Why are you torturing that old man, you evil witch? Can you not see that he's in dreadful pain?" Ignoring her attempts to talk him down, he vows to send her back to "the stinking hell from which you spawned", and to follow her until she is dead; he then disappears. Tiffany and the Feegles then make it to Ankh-Morpork, where she eventually finds Roland. Here, the Cunning Man materialises again just as Tiffany is trying to let Roland know his father died, turning him against her by getting Roland to think "What did the bitch do to him? Do not trust her! She is a witch! Do not suffer a witch to live!". Thankfully, at this point AM police arrive before anything escalates, having Tiffany taken away to somewhere safe and out the way... though on the way, Angua warns Tiffany not to go out the building in case the Ankh-Morpork people start a lynch mob, and tells her a few villages outside the city have started turning against "witches" and beat them.
Fastforward a bit when Tiffany meets Eskarina Smith, protagonist of Equal Rites, who explains CM's origins, having time travelled back to see it. She says that he now drives himself on "such hatred that, according to elasticated string theory, [goes] all the way round the universe and comes back from a different direction so that it seems to be a kind of love. And he wants to see her again. In which case, she will almost certainly die." CM then tracks her down to Smith's hideout, forcing her to flee (Smith is fine, having fought him off when they previous encountered each other) back to the Chalk... where a corrupted Roland is sending his guards to dig up the Feegle home (ostensibly to retrieve a "missing" girl named Amber Petty taking refuge from her abusive father, but really because Roland's been corrupted to hate Tiffany and blame her for his father's death), almost ending in the guards deaths. Tiff is able to defuse the situation, barely, then goes to the castle to find Roland accusing her of attempted murder of the aforementioned Mr Petty (who actually tried to hang himself out of guilt and was then beaten with nettles by vengeful Feegles when Tiff saved his life), then accusing her of swindling the dying previous baron and killing him; again, she escapes this by the skin of her teeth... for all of a chapter.
Done with the "tormenting" part of his shits and giggles routine, CM escalates to getting the castle cook, Ms Coble, drunk, and has her blame Tiffany for the aforementioned Baron's death, then lets her get in a position where she falls and breaks her neck just after she accuses Tiff of planning to kill everyone else. Tiff is then arrested and charged with child abduction and keeping a child in poor conditions (the Feegle don't live in what we'd call the best conditions, but it could be worse), the aforementioned Baron-icide and robbery, then "pushing" the cook to her death. Tiffany sneaks out with the guards' help, and finds out that CM was directed to her by an accidental hex cast by Roland's fiancée, Letitia (also a witch), whom Tiff forgives. At this point, the CM possesses a copy of Bonfire in the castle library and tries to use it as a gateway to come through and attack the two, only being foiled when the book is pressed down and burned beyond any use. Thankfully, after that Roland starts to break free of the brainwashing, releasing her. CM goes back to stalking and threats, then attempts to attack her again through the tapestry. Esk intervenes by freezing time temporarily, allowing Tiff to drive him back for now. Witches assemble in the area, to put CM down - and Tiffany if he were to possess her, since having a witch to possess would allow him to kill even more witches than he already has, potentially ending witchcraft altogether.
CM then goes to Ankh-Morpork again, going to the big prison known as the Tanty. Here he possesses the criminal Macintosh, using him as a host and then having him break out, but not before having Mac kill the canary the prison gave him, as part of a rehabilitation scheme, for no reason (this is what has Tiffany decide to outright "kill" him rather than just stop him). Taking Mac's body, CM reflects on how he always finds a mind to possess and corrupt, seeming to take sadistic amusement from the act, then heads to the Chalk to track down and kill Tiffany for good. He doesn't, however, take into account the fact that the mortal form he's possessed is considerably more vulnerable, and driven by hatred runs into a trap where the body is eventually cornered in a field due for burning; the fire is then used by Tiffany as a ritual to banish him. Thus the CM is put down for now, to resurface in a few decades' time.
Heinous by the standard of the work?
In terms of the book as a standalone, yes. Nobody in the book comes close to his level of villainy and malice combined, even considering the events prior to his becoming a spirit being mostly off-page; even then, we see enough of the process with Tiffany that we can safely assume all prior encounters have gone the same disgusting way. At no point does a character treat him as anything short of disgusting, foul and irredeemable, and the book is Darker and Edgier almost entirely because of his influence.
In terms of the Tiffany Aching books, also yes. He might not have the resources of the Wintersmith (the most powerful antagonist, a literal god), but no other being in the Aching series has any moral agency (the Wintersmith is Obliviously Evil and has Blue-and-Orange Morality; the Hiver in Hat Full of Sky is a dumb animal until its final moments; the Elves are a group and again have Blue-and-Orange Morality). Cunning Man is very self-aware, sadistic, calculating and uncaring of the lives he ruins either through his subterfuge or through possessing them, which strips their agency away until he discards them for another person to fool and wear out.
In terms of the Disc, he's a lower-resource villain compared to Ipslore the Red (has a literal Reality Warper as his Dragon-in-Chief) or the Duchess (acting ruler of a kingdom), but makes up for this with tormenting his victims for extensive periods of time, often seeing their loved ones come to harm or worse for his own amusement before killing them or possessing them (which results in their eventual death regardless). There's also the fact that his aim is to wipe out witchcraft altogether, uncaring that most witches are actually decent people.
Any mitigating factors?
Not really. He has a very slight Freudian Excuse in that he was contemplating saving the witch in his origin story, but this is less out of love and more because she's beautiful, therefore "Sex Is Evil, and I Am Horny" (think Frollo singing "Hellfire"). The incident essentially led him to leave any remaining humanising traits behind until he goes around sowing discord to satisfy his insatiable hatred. Even by the standards of ancient Omnianism, he was despised and feared by his colleagues and underlings, and the present hasn't mellowed him out, to the point he'll terrorise non-witches and kill an innocent animal even when it serves no purpose. As said before, while we only see his interactions in the present day directly (some Offscreen Villainy for the past), Tiffany's torment hints he's just as nasty in the past.
Conclusion
I thought this over a tad given the sadly offscreen fights he had with Granny Weatherwax and Esk, but I'm thinking a strong
to Cunning Man given how bloody personal and tormenting he is. As always, however, I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
I'm surprised you're so quick to count Arthur Watts as a non example. He goes out of his way to try to murder every single person in Mantle by shutting off the tech that keeps them from freezing to death and locks up the system to keep anyone from fixing it.
There are of course minor but notable things like enabling Tyrian to commit a massacre and then framing Penny for it and needlessly causing car crashes and other damage just to stroll through the city. In the grand scheme of things, he can also be held responsible for the possible genocide of Atlas as he is the primary enabler of the massive Grim invasion we see Salem launching in the last episode.
I would frankly say he is bad as Cinder and manages to outclass Adam. At the very least, I think Watts deserves an effort post.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.So for Dragon Age, I noticed Bann Vaughan's entries on the YMMV page and Video Games: 0 to F are different.
Here's his entry on Video Games: 0 to F:
- Bann Vaughan is a sex offender and murderer of elven women who justifies his crimes by saying that elves aren't real people. When he appears in the City Elf origin story, Vaughan abducts the entire female half of a wedding party, including the protagonist if female, to be raped by him and his men. By the time the protagonist fights back, one woman has already been killed and the protagonist's cousin, Shianni, has already been raped by Vaughan and his friends. Unwilling to release his hostages, Vaughan instead tries to bribe the protagonist into letting him keep the women for the night. Such cruelty from Vaughan isn't an isolated incident either, as the DLC prequel Leliana's Song features an overheard conversation where Vaughan is preparing to rape/torture one of his maids over a floor stain.
And here's his entry on the YMMV page for comparison:
- Vaughan Kendalls, the son of Arl Urien Kendalls of Denerim, is a Serial Rapist and murderer of elven women who justifies his crimes by saying that elves aren't real people. When he appears in the City Elf origin story, Vaughan abducts the entire female half of a wedding party, including the protagonist if female, to be raped by him and his men. By the time the protagonist fights back, one woman has already been killed, and by the time the protagonist reaches Vaughan, their cousin, Shianni, has been raped by Vaughan and his friends. Unwilling to release his hostages, Vaughan instead tries to bribe the protagonist into letting him keep the women for the night and threaten to have his father burn the Denerim alienage to the ground. Such cruelty from Vaughan isn't an isolated incident, either - the DLC prequel Leliana's Song features an overheard conversation where Vaughan is preparing to rape/torture one of his maids over a floor stain, and Valendrian tells of an elven dockworker's daughter who was kidnapped by Vaughan and found dead floating the water a few days later.
What should we do about this? From research, Vaughan Kendalls appears to be his real name, so at the very least, that should probably be mentioned in his entry.
I'm working through Monday, but I can probably get an effort post up on Arthur Watts up on Tuesday. I'm just curious as to why those who claimed the work deemed him a non keeper. To me, shutting down the heat to Mantle to potentially kill countless innocent people by freezing them to death pushed Watts over the line for me.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.The thing on Watts, though?
Thus far, he has been little but completely loyal to to Salem, and Salem and Cinder have both tried to have a city ripped apart by Grimm. I can do an EP on Watts, but I think we should wait on him to see what happens next.
As for Vaughn...yes, that cna be corrected
Edited by Lightysnake on Feb 15th 2020 at 4:34:12 AM
I'm neutral on Watts as far as this trope goes.
But I don't quite see the Loyalty thing. Unlike Tyrian who rants about how Salem is a goddess, nothing indicates Watts throwing his hat in with Salem was out of anything but oppurtunism unless I'm forgetting something.
Things are really about to get Fun around hereI'm willing to buy Tyrian having loyalty and affection for Salem as a person, but Watts, on the other hand, seems to be following her solely for personal reasons. His machinations against Atlas and Mantle feel far too vindictive and petty for me to say he has any redeeming loyalty to Salem. He wants to watch Atlas and it's people burn because they denied him a modicum of respect that he felt he was owed.
Honestly, going back and stacking up what he and Cinder did makes him worse in many ways to me. If anything, he certainly feels worse that Adam at this point considering Adam had the backing of an entire terrorist group at his disposal while Salem left Watts to his own devices.
I genuinely think that he counts and that he deserves an effort post to see if everyone else concurs or not.
Think you're tough because you made it through Lord of the Rings? Real men survive The Silmarillion.Watts showcased some loyalty to Salem early on at least. Problem is we know little on him as a character just yet. and he's blatantly going to get out of jail now. What say we....should I do the post on him now?
That said, I do have a folklore villain from early Brittany history...Conomor the Accursed.
Who is Conomor?
Conomor the Accursed is the 6th king of Brittany, immortalized in tales and folklore as the villain who may well have inspired the legends of Bluebeard as written by Charles Perrault....the heroine of the story is Trephine, the daughter of a rival noble. Now, Conomor is a brutal and cruel man with a dark reputation, who demands the hand of Trephine. Understandably, shall we say, reluctant, Trephine refuses...Conomor threatens to destroy her father's lands if she should refuse. Gildas, a holy man who sticks around, manages to negotiate the marriage, and says that if Trephine is ever mistreated, she will be returned to her dad.
Now, Conomor has a dark prophecy that he will be overthrown by his son. As you can expect from the legend of who he inspired, though...there's a reason he's single. When he's away, Trephine stumbles upon a room with the bodies/relics of his dead wives who he murders when they fall pregnant. And Trephine is with child. Oh, no good....but the legend does sort of vary here. Now, on one hand? Conomor is driven to get rid of Trephine for the prophecy. In another, he has the hots for another woman and wants to be a widower again. The spirits of the dead wives come together to warn Trephine about her psycho husband....now, they help her poison Conomor's guard dog, with "the poison that killed me" says one wife. Another offers the cord Conomor strangled her with to scale down the wall. Another offers the fire that burnt her to see through the dark. Another gives the stick that broke her skull for the journey. Trephine flees. Conomor catches Trephine and beheads her.
Trephine's father has her body recovered and affronts Gildas over the promise. Gildas prays so hard that Trephine's body is restored and she comes back to life. Gildas, being a saint with the power of God on his side, strides with righteous fury towards Conomor and throws dust at his fortress...and god smites his lands down a la walls of Jericho. Defeated, Conomor is either killed here, or in some versions of the legend, survives whereupon Gildas leads 30 bishops to pray against him and strike him down, whereupon he is borne off in a river of blood. Metal.
But Conomor is so evil that the heavens deny him entry in some versions of the legend and he becomes a savage werewolf, wandering the lands to take victims until slain by a thrust to the head with a knife.
Heinousness?
Bluebeard as a warmongering tyrant with multiple victims? I doubt the real Conomor was as bad, but the legendary one passes this well, doesn't he?
Mitigating Qualities?
He's Conomor the Accursed, not Conomor the Cuddly. No, he's a brutal monster. Now, the legend varies a bit depending on the telling, but not a single one gives Conomor a decent quality at all.
Now, I find that sometimes legends can be a bit tricky due to the changes in telling, but there's enough written down in fairy tale and folklore. While Conomor was a real king in the dark ages in Welsh history (and who likes The Welsh?) the folklore Conomor is obviously more evil than the real guy with numerous folklore stories. Now, I'm not sure how we reconcile this with figures like Elizabeth Bathory, William de Soulis, Sawney Bean (who probably never even existed) or Gilles de Rais but I think there's enough as Conomor almost certainly inspired Bluebeard in this legend.
Conclusion?
A fair keeper.
Edited by Lightysnake on Feb 15th 2020 at 5:05:31 AM
Yes to Conomor.
I could see an EP on Watts. I guess. I mean I'm really behind on the show. So I can't really be of any help.
Edited by Bullman on Feb 15th 2020 at 7:09:55 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread

Any deeds to add for the current keepers? For that matter, do any of the current keepers get killed/arrested/whatever?
Also, I think this is only Ares's 3rd. Wrath of the Titans and the God of War novelization.