During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
I don't get how brainwashing thousands of people into slavery for decades, on top of everything else, doesn't qualify the Green Lady as heinous enough. It's true that Narnia has some really dark moments but most of those, such as The Last Battle, are more Aslan just making it happen to make X good happen rather than a single villain just acting on it, which is different from The Green Lady actively doing everything herself.
I mean she also murders a good-guy character from a previous book and subjects another hero to Cold-Blooded Torture, among all the other bad things she does
I guess I will switch to a slight yes on the Lady. If only due to the brainwashing into slavery thing on top of the Cold-Blooded Torture. Man I have got to reread these books. I used to love them as a kid.
Edited by Bullman on Feb 12th 2020 at 12:11:01 PM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup threadAh, the Lady of Green Straw...that brings me way back. I'll give a provisional yes to her. Barely, but it's a fair point she's working with more onscreen villainy than Jadis.
Venom is a yes, too.
Edited by Scraggle on Feb 12th 2020 at 11:39:18 AM
I'll repeat that I think Tengu should be cut
A slight
to the Green Lady though
On that note, anyone count yet from Rise of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles?
EDIT: Also, I'll file the cut for Tengu tomorrow morning, and while I'm at it...
- The Councilor, from season 4's "Trouble with Augie", is the leader of the lizard race known as the Brotherhood, a race of interdimensional conquerors known for eating entire species. Years ago, the Councilor led his people in the complete slaughter of the Zodats. After the Zodats destroyed their teleporter as a last resort to stop the Brotherhood, the Councilor tricks Professor August "Augie" O'Neil into repairing it under the illusion of being a peaceful race. When April and Donatello reveal it's an act, the Councilor forces Augie to finish fixing the teleporter, with plans to do to the human race what he did to the Zodats. The Councilor's final act is to abandon his army to die and try to escape his impending death.
Edited by ACW on Feb 12th 2020 at 3:50:18 PM
to Dr. Venom and Green Lady
Cut Tengu Shredder
Edited by G-Editor on Feb 11th 2020 at 11:00:11 PM
My sandbox of EPs and other stuffOne I was definitely on the fence about, but, after rewatching his episodes, I decided to go through with proposing him.
Clayton Greystoke from Tarzan and Jane
The Show: The Earl of Greystoke is a Brit who runs a multi-billion dollar business empire called Greystoke Industries. While travelling across Africa, the Earl's infant grandson, John Clayton, and his conservationist parents were involved in an airplane crash; John's parents died on impact, but the injured John was dug out of the airplane wreckage by a gorilla named Kala. Kala brought John to a nearby village run by Chief Wazari. The village's shaman, using both his own remedies and medicines supplied by the visiting Doctor Porter, managed to save the wounded John, who was rechristened Tarzan. The combination of the shaman's and Doctor Porter's medicines imbued Tarzan with superhuman strength, agility, speed, and senses, as well as retractable Wolverine Claws. To protect Tarzan, the villagers reluctantly lied and told Doctor Porter that he had died before giving him to Kala, who raised Tarzan in the ways of the jungle, while Chief Wazari's son, Muviro, raised him in the ways of the human world (so this Tarzan can speak perfect English).
Who They Are: Loosely based on Tarzan's cousin and rival William Cecil Clayton from the original Tarzan stories, this Clayton is also the cousin of Tarzan, as well as the nephew of the Earl of Greystoke. Clayton runs the disaster relief programs of Greystoke Industries, but, unbeknownst to his uncle, he is also a crime lord who uses the company's money to fund illegal ventures like poaching rare animals (to sell either whole or in pieces) in Africa.
What They Do:
- 1. Clayton becomes the heir apparent of Greystoke Industries after his relatives seemingly perished in an airplane crash in equatorial Africa. Ten years after the disappearance of the Claytons, footage of the "ape boy" who had been disrupting Clayton's poaching operations (like a recent one involving the attempted capture of a rhino and her baby) is uploaded to TVTube by Emily, a student of Doctor Porter. After watching the "ape boy" footage, Clayton orders his henchmen to Bring It Back Alive ("or don't come back at all")
- 2. Tarzan spends the next five years fending off and sabotaging all of the poachers and mercenaries that are sent after him (and the animals) by Clayton. Tarzan gets brought to England (where he meets his grandfather, the Earl of Greystoke) shortly after meeting and befriending Doctor Porter's daughter, Jane.
- 3. His long-lost cousin being found alive means that Clayton is no longer the heir to Greystoke Industries. This makes Clayton hate his uncle, who he vows to destroy along with Tarzan (who he still has a grudge against for interfering with his poaching operations in Africa). Clayton places Jeremy, the owner of an aircraft cargo service and his second-in-command, in charge of moving a poached family of panthers through England, but the panthers are saved by Tarzan, Jane, and Muviro.
- 4. Jeremy's attempt at getting the panthers back for Clayton is thwarted by Tarzan, Jane, Muviro, and the Earl's chauffeur, Charlie. Tarzan and Jane discern Jeremy's connection to the animal poaching ring, and alert the International Crime Bureau. Tarzan tries to free all of the animals being held in Jeremy's hangar, but is captured by Jeremy. Tarzan escapes, and with Jane's help, he rounds up all of Jeremy's henchmen for the ICB, and returns all of the stolen animals (which include an orphaned baby gorilla) to Africa.
- 5. Clayton calls Jeremy out on losing all of the animals, as well as Tarzan. Clayton arranges for all of the safety features (like the sprinklers) to be shut off in one of his uncle's aid package warehouses before replacing the warehouse's stockpiled batteries with leaky expired ones; he then has Jeremy set the warehouse on fire, convinced that all of the death and destruction (along with bringing the entire warehouse down, the expired batteries exploding will also contaminate the nearby River Thames "for decades to come") will ruin the Earl. Unfortunately for Clayton, Tarzan is able to save the warehouse workers who failed to get out in time and stop the expired batteries from exploding, saving the surrounding area and the River Thames. Fortunately for Clayton, the potential catastrophe (as well as the very presence of the expired batteries) is a big hit to the otherwise impeccable reputation of the Earl, who starts being hounded by paparazzi, like Jane's mother, Angela. Clayton, who had played the good Samaritan during the disaster, later sends men to ransack the office of the Earl. In his lair, Clayton gloats about how he will soon take down the Earl and that "freak show" Tarzan.
- 6. Clayton imports multiple barrels of an illegal and potentially deadly pesticide, which he has a minion use on the crops of one of his uncle's farms in Scotland. The poisoned crops sicken numerous people, which brings more heat down on Greystoke Industries. The minion tries to spray more of the pesticide in front of the press, but is stopped by Tarzan. Jane's reporter mother, Angela, is convinced of the Earl's innocence, and Jane finds a worn shipping label on one of the pesticide barrels, which leads her and Tarzan to the S.S. Edgar in Southampton. Tarzan and Jane sneak aboard the ship to look through its shipping manifests, which reveal that the pesticide barrels came from an address in Morocco. Tarzan and Jane are unable to get off of the ship before it sets sail for Morocco. Clayton sends Jeremy and two other henchmen to once again ransack the Earl's office, where they run into the Earl and Angela, who were on the telephone with Tarzan and Jane. Jeremy and the two lackeys try to either capture or kill the Earl and Angela, but the two fend them off long enough for ICB agents, alerted by Tarzan and Jane, to arrive and arrest Jeremy and Co. Clayton, after checking in with the Earl, deploys agents to capture or kill Tarzan and Jane in Morocco.
- 7. Tarzan and Jane fend off the assassins, and make it to the building that the pesticide originated from; it turns out to be a trap, though, as Tarzan and Jane get sealed in the building immediately after entering it, and are left to the mercy of a swarm of venomous king cobras. Tarzan and Jane manage to escape unscathed, while Clayton steals a fleet of bulldozers and other heavy machinery from Greystoke Industries, and transports it to Africa. The equipment is going to be used to destroy Tarzan's jungle home and Muviro's village, and anyone who gets in the way or tries to stop the razing, simply to spite Tarzan. Tarzan and Jane board a train that will take them near Muviro's village, and are followed by more of Clayton's thugs, who were tracking them through Jane's smartphone. The minions are all thrown from the train after it becomes clear that none of them will talk for fear of being killed (or rather "destroyed") by Clayton.
- 8. Tarzan and Jane make it to the jungles of Africa, and save the jungle and the village (as well as Doctor Porter, Muviro, and Chief Wazari) from Clayton's henchmen, one of whom (who has an elephant tusk on him) is threatened into revealing that his boss might be found in a nearby private airfield. Tarzan realizes that Kala is missing, and after a bit of investigating, realizes that she is being held in an abandoned diamond mine near the airstrip. Tarzan, Jane, and Muviro split up to find Kala. Tarzan ventures into the mine, where he meets Clayton, who claims to have been sent to help him by the Earl. Kala is found caged and dangling above a pit, and Tarzan realizes that Clayton was the one who took her. Clayton sets the pit on fire as he says that his father, Ethan, owned the mine, and that he was a fool who never gave him anything other than his ring. Clayton rants that he lost his chance to inherit Greystoke Industries after Tarzan turned up alive, so he set out to ruin and/or kill the Earl and Tarzan, which he still intends to do even after Tarzan claims that he does not care at all about money or titles or owning Greystoke Industries. Clayton decides to be "sporting" and lets Tarzan try to save Kala while he shoots at them both (using a gun that fires what is clearly actual bullets and not just tranquilizer darts like every other firearm that had appeared up until that point). As he prepares to shoot the rope that will send Tarzan and Kala plummeting into the fiery pit, Clayton laughs about how he will get away with it by claiming that Tarzan's death was a tragic accident, going on to say that it would be great if his grandson's death caused the Earl to die of grief. Clayton is prevented from severing the rope by Jane and Muviro, but asserts that he still wins because the rope is going to give out anyway, declaring, "At least that freak will never be the Earl of Greystoke!" Tarzan and Kala narrowly survive, and Clayton tries to make a run for it, only to be caught (and saved from falling into the pit) by Tarzan after he stops to try and grab his dropped and bouncing ring.
Heinousness: The first few episodes only focused on his animal poaching ring, but in later ones he definitely upped his villainous ante, having a warehouse full of people set on fire after disabling all of the fail safes and filling it with explosive contaminants; sickening people by poisoning crops with a potentially deadly pesticide; spitefully attempting to raze Tarzan's jungle home and his friends' village and anyone (like Doctor Porter and the villagers) who got in the way; and further attempting to hurt Tarzan by burning his adoptive ape mother alive (while Kala was not exactly sentient, Clayton was aware that she was Tarzan's surrogate parent, and that her death would probably destroy Tarzan).
Jeremy was the only one of his henchmen to get any characterization, and while he was nasty, he was also just a lackey who did little of his own volition, mostly just following Clayton's orders (oversee the poaching operation for me, set the warehouse on fire for me, ransack the Earl's office for me, etc.)
The villains of Season Two were a mad scientist (the show, previously fairly grounded, suddenly and randomly veered into sci-fi territory) and a poacher who were secretly operating in Brazil. They were tearing apart the Amazon (displacing both its wildlife and its indigenous people, who were shown fighting a pair of lackeys in a flashback) to get animals to sell and experiment on (the scientist had developed a gas that caused animals that were exposed to it to temporarily become huge and aggressive). They at some point also captured King Kong (what they planned on doing with him is not made clear) and found a hidden entrance to the Lost World (again, their plans for it were not made clear). While all of this is bad for sure, they never quite reached the depths that Clayton plumbed.
Mitigating Factors: The only real point of contention is his father's ring, which he was shown constantly fidgeting with. He insults his father as a fool, but then goes out of his way to try and save the ring that he gave him, which indicates that, on some level, he may have had at least some appreciation for his father. Or maybe he just wanted the ring back so bad because it was valuable and/or potentially incriminating evidence, which might seem more likely, given how much he hated his family.

Abstain on the Lady of Green Kirtle.