During the investigation of recent hollers in the Complete Monster thread, it's become apparent to the staff that an insular, unfriendly culture has evolved in the Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard threads that is causing problems.
Specific issues include:
- Overzealous hollers on tropers who come into the threads without being familiar with all the rules and traditions of the tropes. And when they are familiar with said rules and traditions, they get accused (with little evidence) of being ban evaders.
- A few tropers in the thread habitually engage in snotty, impolite mini-modding. There are also regular complaints about excessive, offtopic "socializing" posts.
- Many many thread regulars barely post/edit anywhere else, making the threads look like they are divorced from the rest of TV Tropes.
- Following that, there are often complaints about the threads and their regulars violating wiki rules, such as on indexing, crosswicking, example context and example categorization. Some folks are working on resolving the issues, but...
- Often moderator action against thread regulars leads to a lot of participants suddenly showing up in the moderation threads to protest and speak on their behalf, like a clique.
It is not a super high level problem, but it has been going on for years and we cannot ignore it any longer. There will be a thread in Wiki Talk
to discuss the problem; in the meantime there is a moratorium on further Complete Monster and Magnificent Bastard example discussion until we have gotten this sorted out.
Update: The new threads have been made and can be found here:
Please see the Frequently Asked Questions and Common Requests List before suggesting any new entries for this trope.
IMPORTANT: To avoid a holler to the mods, please see here for the earliest date a work can be discussed, (usually two weeks from the US release), as well as who's reserved discussion.
When voting, you must specify the candidate(s). No blanket votes (i.e. "
to everyone I missed").
No plagiarism: It's fair to source things, but an effortpost must be your own work and not lifted wholesale from another source.
We don't care what other sites think about a character being a Complete Monster. We judge this trope by our own criteria. Repeatedly attempting to bring up other sites will earn a suspension.
What is the Work
Here you briefly describe the work in question and explain any important setting details. Don't assume that everyone is familiar with the work in question.
Who is the Candidate and What have they Done?
This will be the main portion of the Effort Post. Here you list all of the crimes committed by the candidate. For candidates with longer rap sheets, keep the list to their most important and heinous crimes, we don't need to hear about every time they decide to do something minor or petty.
Do they have any Mitigating Factors or Freudian Excuse?
Here you discuss any potential redeeming or sympathetic features the character has, the character's Freudian Excuse if they have one, as well as any other potential mitigating factors like Offscreen Villainy or questions of moral agency. Try to present these as objectively as possible by presenting any evidence that may support or refute the mitigating factors.
Do they meet the Heinousness Standard?
Here you compare the actions of the Candidate to other character actions in the story in order to determine if they stand out or not. Remember that all characters, not just other villains, contribute to the Heinousness Standard
Final Verdict?
Simply state whether or not you think the character counts or not.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 31st 2023 at 4:14:10 AM
I see that argument but Narnia is clearly a children's series and for a children's series I think she definitely meets the required heinous threshold. In a darker or more adult work she probably wouldn't cut it but heinousness has always been dependent on the series the character comes from and she's easily one of, if not the most heinous character in the series and meets the threshold for a children's book imo.
'Yes' to Curwen and the Councilor, Cut Tengu!Shredder after a lot of deliberation, and.... I'll have to abstain on the Lady for now. She's bad, but not sure if bad enough.
Alright, I've got us another G.I. Joe baddie, so let's knock this one out.
What's the work?
If I've said it once I've said it a thousand times: G.I. Joe.
Today, we're talking about the original comic itself, G.I. Joe: A Real American Hero (Marvel), written by Larry Hama. Originally published for 155 issues by Marvel, the series was transferred over to Devil's Due Publishing, who did their own thing with it without Hama onboard until a couple years ago, IDW comics gained the rights and offered Hama the chance to pick up where issue 155 of his original run ended. So, though under the IDW banner, the comic picked up right where it left off with issue 155, continuing the neverending combat between the heroic G.I. Joe team, and the terrorist organization known as Cobra.
Who is he?
Dr. Venom is the original Mad Scientist for Cobra. Before his much more popular replacement Dr. Mindbender came along, Venom was the premiere genius wackjob serving Cobra Commander, and prime Hate Sink of the entire franchise. A sadistic weasel of a man, Venom had little paneltime compared to other Cobra agents, and I once advocated for his removal from the trope many years ago....but, upon a reread, and his return in the revived G.I. Joe comics? I think he warrants new discussion.
What has he done?
Claude Matthias Vinim was raised in Switzerland by a controlling father who directed his son's life all the way into his teens, until the day Vinim shoved said father off a bridge to his death. Choosing his own field in technology sciences, Vinim excelled at a renowned college, his rather, ah, disturbed views on the human brain notwithstanding, until the day the dean of the school received a letter implicating Vinim in his father's death, leading to his expulsion from the college...in response, Vinim killed the man be burning his house to the ground, with the implication that the man had a family that was swept up in the flames as well.
Building his own criminal career around tampering with the brain, Vinim showcased his capabilities to potential "employer" Cobra Commander by having a rodent rip a cat to shreds before the Commander's eyes, Vinim smiling the whole time. Upon being hired by Cobra, Vinim dubbed himself "Dr. Venom" and began an illustrious career as the cruel head scientist of Cobra.
In his first appearance proper in the comic, Venom captures the silent ninja Snake Eyes and introduces him to Venom's "Brainwave Scanner", a brutal Mind Rape device of Venom's own creation that becomes a staple of Cobra's enterprises. Venom brags that the machine probes the victim's mind and memories to learn anything Venom wishes, and though Venom notes that the process coupd have been made pleasant and unharmful at all? He specifically designed it to cause the target as much pain as possible as their minds are taken through every horrible pain and fear they've ever experienced.
Subjecting Snake Eyes to hours of this while his compatriots capture more G.I. Joes, Venom comes to believe Snake Eyes has died from the machine's taxing effects, and promptly orders his body disposed of while remarking he'll just start using the Scanner on each and every one of the captured Joes until he gets what he wants. Unfortunately for Venom, Snake Eyes was faking, and the ninja breaks himself and his fellow Joes free for now.
Later working to develop a lethal virus for Cobra, Venom hires the dangerous eskimo mercenary Kwinn to assist him in capturing Snake Eyes once more...once Venom has him in hand, he flies into a rage and beats a defenseless Snake Eyes brutally with a pistol for "daring" to strike the doctor during his escape at their last encounter, this display of vicious sadism disgusting Kwinn. Once more believing Snake Eyes to be dead, Venom leaves his body to burn in an aflame warehouse before realizing his mistake as Snake Eyes once again escapes with his life.
When Kwinn reveals his discontent with working for Venom, Venom tries to shoot Kwinn in the back to kill the man, only for Snake Eyes to arrive and save Kwinn. About this time, the Baroness betrays Venom and bombs the bunker he is residing in, leaving him, Snake Eyes, and Kwinn to die. Though Venom is initially hesitant, he agrees to team up with Snake Eyes and Kwinn to escape, but of course, as soon as Kwinn is in a vulnerable position? Venom bashes him in the head and leaves him to drown in a lake, though this fails as Kwinn is an absolute badass.
Continuing to team with the duo, Venom once again tries to betray and kill them both after the trio steal a plane, with Venom trying to fling both of them out of the plane to their deaths. Venom is soon enough recovered by Cobra and continues his development of the virus...as it turns out, Venom, working on Cobra Commander's orders, plans to spread a time-triggered version of the virus throughout the currency of the entire United States, cheerfully bragging how he'll be able to kill millions at the flick of a switch. When the Joes show up and begin taking on Cobra, Venom, being the Dirty Coward he is, reacts by gunning down the Cobra guards protecting him and leaving the virus in an explosive to blow up and kill the arriving Joes, as well as any Cobra soldiers who happen to get caught up in it as well.
Fleeing with Cobra Commander, Venom infects a Cobra agent with the virus and allows him to be captured by G.I. Joe in an attempt to poison their entire base and kill them all, but this plan fails. Kwinn and Snake Eyes, working together for some time now, manage to track down Venom, seeking revenge. Fortunately for Venom, Cobra backup arrives in time, and Venom captures Snake Eyes and Kwinn before locking them up in...uhhhh...armor that has individual Brainwave Scanners in them, so he can Mind Rape people while forcing them to use the armor to do his bidding...God, I love the 80s.
Sending Snake Eyes and Kwinn in the Mind Rape armor to kill Joes while mocking them over their predicament, Venom has Kwinn open fire on Snake Eyes when the ninja's will begins to overpower the armor, and ultimately, Venom is confronted by a freed, vengeful Kwinn, who actually lets go of his hate and tells Venom he will let him live before walking off. Too bad Venom is an absolute ass, as he pulls a gun and shoot Kwinn in the back for absolutely not reason except cruelty, but too bad for Venom...Kwinn kinda predicted this turn of events, and reveals he was holding a pressure-triggered grenade in his hand the whole time, and his murder causes him to drop the grenade right at the feet of a horrified Venom, who is blown to smithereens by the device.
All seemed done for with Dr. Venom...however, when the series was revived under Larry Hama's pen, so was Dr. Venom, as it is revealed that the madman left a copy of his own mind in the Brainwave Scanner, and when Cobra Commander uses the Brainwave Scanner on his own son Billy many times, Dr. Venom is able to copy this mind of his into Billy's mind and assume partial-control of the boy, planning to use him to betray Cobra Commander and take over the organization himself. After a Mind Rape of Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow, Venom is seemingly beaten once more as he is dragged into his own worst fears of Kwinn and trapped in the Brainwave Scanner in a Fate Worse than Death, but ya can't keep a good...uhhh, poison down, as Venom once more resurfaces by possessing the mind of new Cobra Mad Scientist, Dr. Mindbender.
Using Mindbender to continue more Brainwave Scanner experiments, Venom eventually assumes full control of his body, murdering a man for a new set of clothes in the process and re-taking his place in Cobra as lead scientist, all while planning the murders of every other Cobra leader so he can rule over the entire organization. Venom performs many more experiments with the Brainwave Scanner, as well as other kinds of experiments on people that involve leaving very large amounts of blood splattered around his workspace.
Planning to use the Brainwave Scanner to extract memories and minds from actual soldiers and implant them into androids to create an insta-trained army of robot soldiers, Venom first transfers his mind into a massive, powerful robot body.....unfoooooortunately, during the transfer, the Joes arrive and damage the machinery, leading to the transfer being completed, but leaving Venom's psyche fractured and full of cracks.
Nonetheless continuing his plans despite his ramped up derangement, Venom betrays the Commander and begins slaughtering Cobra and Joe alike, offering the Commander the chance to be his personal meat puppet before deciding to just kill the man, all while physically and verbally abusing his own loyal android bodyguard.
Venom is, just barely, beaten in the end, and as his circuits fry and the Brainwave Scanner maintaining his essence begins shutting down, Venom flashes back to his past and his many victims over the years, and his final moments of consciousness are spent in utter horror as the mutiliated, nightmarish manifestations of several of Venom's victims over the years materialize before his mind, and literally drag his consciousness kicking and screaming into the void of nothingness as the machinery keeping his mind alive shuts down. Permanently.
Freudian Excuse or other redeeming features?
For literally 99% of his appearances? Venom is portrayed as an absolutely heartless, hateable, repulsive bastard with nothing remotely sympathetic or redeeming about him, the madman himself mocking the idea of love and attachment to others and taking every possible opportunity he can to betray, backstab, and otherwise screw over any and everyone he can.
However, in Venom's last issue, he gets about 3 pages' worth of backstory as he dies, as we see him flash back...during his youth, Venom had a pretty dreadful father, who stifled Venom's creativity by burning his art and selling his guitar, constantly tried to control him into becoming a surgical doctor like himself, and even forced Venom as a child to throw his puppy into a river weighed down by a brick simply because the animal was a "mangy stray." This culminated in Venom throwing his father off a bridge, which later came back to bite him when he was expelled for connection to the murder, leading Venom to burn the college dean alive and turn to crime.
Now, I'll be the first to admit that Venom's dad was a piece of shit and probably deserved what he got, but the fact is, by adulthood? Venom is far beyond what this backstory could explain. He's become an egomaniacal sadist willing to kill millions for fun, who outright tries to use the excuse of "I'm a sick person, I'm not responsible for my actions!" just to make an enemy pity him so he can then betray him. The parallel between Venom's drowning of his dog and the scene where he showcases his alteration of the mind to the Commander is also apparent: whereas Venom as a child had tears in his eyes as he dropped his dog into the river, Venom as an adult gleefully watches with sadism as two small animals tear into each other.
Venom had freedom from his father, and became the monster he is by choice. His backstory is rough, but by the time he's literally cackling while gunning down his own men and bragging about the deaths of millions he'll have on his hands, I think he's well past the point of such a backstory excusing him. And though said backstory is only revealed in his dying moments, it's not an Alas, Poor Villain, it's moreso a build-up to show all the people Venom has murdered over the years—from his father to Kwinn to even his dog—showing up at the end to drag Venom into what can best be described as digital hell, with Venom never once showing any form of remorse or regret for his present actions.
Heinousness?
Real American Hero's standard is definitely high...Cobra itself is behind a bookoodle of atrocities, and even a minor villain like Vance Wingfield endangers literally the entire planet. Nonetheless, I think Venom stands out in personal villainy, by far. He weaponizes Mind Rape and explicitly makes it as painful as he possible can just for lulz, his treatment of Kwinn and repeated backstabbings of the man are loathsome, he develops and heads up the project to poison the United States' money supply and put millions in danger, and, upon his return, he body jacks several people, experiments on others, and leads an attempted massacre of both Joes and Cobra alike so he can take control. There's also his backstory of testing his experiments on animals, burning his dean's home to the ground, flinging his father to his death (as deserved as it may have been)...
Venom has limited appearances in the grand scheme of Real American Hero, but right from the start he's established as an irredeemable piece of work, and he stays that way through every single one of his arcs.
Final Verdict?
I'd say Venom's our latest Joe Keep. Definitely a bit of an officer one given his backstory compared to most Joe Keeps who are open-and-shut, but I think Venom far surpasses his backstory and his evil is by no means attributed to his father. Venom is a petty little sadist, simple as that.
Edited by Ravok on Feb 11th 2020 at 11:30:19 AM
No! That is NOT Solid Snake! Stop impersonating him!
Venom (seems like Freudian Excuse Is No Excuse)
Cut Tengu Shredder
"It was the best of times, it was the BLURST of times?"IIRC, their resources are more or less similar, but I could be wrong.
Jadis is a goddess-level witch if I'm not wrong (with the Tree of Youth). Not sure the Lady is at her level.
That being said...
"The parallel between Venom's drowning of his dog and the scene where he showcases his alteration of the mind to the Commander is also apparent: whereas Venom as a child had tears in his eyes as he dropped his dog into the river, Venom as an adult gleefully watches with sadism as two small animals tear into each other."
Which... Doesn't change the fact that he genuinely mourned this specific puppy's demise. While he may have lost any sense of love towards animals, it doesn't mean that he doesn't care anymore about this specific puppy, and at no point I see evidence of him no longer caring for his late dog.
That being said, he doesn't seems to mention him in adulthood...
I'll abstain. It's one of these tough choices where I don't think I can weigh in.
J’m’arrête pas tant qu’j’vois pas des lignes sur les moniteurs (Not stoppin 'til I see Flatlines)Okay, looking at the current 2003 Turtles entries:
- Ch'rell's an obvious keep. He IS the heinous standard.
- Skonk has fewer resources and a different goal. He's fine.
- Necro Monster is unique. He stays.
- Future!Ch'rell is also fine. No different than the Bad Future Apocalypse I got up last year.
- Now, Tengu Shredder, I can see Scraggle's point. On that note, is Romero unique and Omnicidal enough? Then again, considering his scale, I may lean yes.
- Councilor: DEVOURING the conquered? That's unique. I'll toss a
Curwen and the image.
I'd keep Romero over tengu Tbh. Romero is working with nothing but arguably matches him and is a minor villain. Compared to tengu whose a superpwerful demon and Big Bad. I think he's just a tad outclassed.
Venom. Since he decided to embrace being a monster and throw everything good about him away.
Abstain on Lady of the Green Kirtle.
Yes to Venom.
I fine be fine with keeping Romero for the reasons miraculous and Vile said.
Edited by Bullman on Feb 12th 2020 at 7:49:47 AM
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup threadBefore I file the cut for Tengu, DDD made a case
for possibly keeping.
based on Hell on Earth I'm saying keep.
Councilor and Joseph Curwen, I'll go
for Green Lady just about.
to Deadshot II.
![]()
3 other villains have tried that. All of whom were minor bad guys who appeared in an episode or two. How can you justify keeping the main villain of an entire season who only barely matches that.
Edited by miraculous on Feb 12th 2020 at 6:35:00 AM
"That's right mortal. By channeling my divine rage into power, I have forged a new instrument in which to destroy you."Switching to no on Green Lady. I forgot about all the stuff that happened in the Last Battle.
Fan-Preferred Couple cleanup thread

TBH, I lean no on the Lady of the Green Kirtle...I think you made a solid argument, but the heinousness....just not quite doing it for me here. I don't quite think she's punching over and above.